We are so excited to have Dr. Karthik Ramanan on our podcast!
In this inspiring episode, Dr. K. shares a powerful personal transformation—from the high-stakes world of Wall Street to a life of purpose, healing, and service. After graduating from Cornell University with degrees in Applied Economics and Biology, he quickly climbed the corporate ladder at a top investment bank, achieving early success, financial stability, and professional recognition. But, behind the polished exterior was a life marked by burnout, perfectionism, and an emptiness that even success couldn’t fill.
A pivotal moment of reflection—alone in a high-rise apartment—led to a realization: despite hitting every traditional milestone, they were unfulfilled and disconnected from their deeper purpose.
Everything changed after a life-altering encounter with his sister, who had transformed her health through a raw, plant-based diet. With nothing to lose, he gave it a try—and within weeks, experienced profound physical and emotional changes. That transformation sparked a new passion, one that would eventually lead him to leave Wall Street and pursue naturopathic medicine in Arizona.
Now a doctor, spouse, and advocate for holistic wellness, Dr. K shares how food, mindset, and lifestyle shifts unlocked a new kind of success—one rooted in meaning, connection, and emotional health. Tune in to hear how his five pillars of emotional health were born from a journey of self-discovery and reinvention.
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Transcript
John S. 0:06
Welcome to Simon Says, inspire a podcast about life, leadership and building legacies. I'm John Simon, SR and I'm Dina Simon. Our guest today is Dr. Karthik Ramanan. Dr K is the emotional health mentor to entrepreneurs, executives and their companies. Dr K, welcome to our podcast.
Dr. K. 0:28
I'm glad to be here. Thank you, John and Dina.
John S. 0:31
Why don't you take a minute or two, Dr K, and maybe tell the audience a little bit about yourself, maybe where you live and what you'd like to do in your spare time.
Dr. K. 0:40
Absolutely, so I am in Phoenix, Arizona. Have been for 12 years, actually, 12 years as of two days ago. Nice as of us recording today. And as far as what I love to do in my spare time, I like to say, in an alternate universe, I would be an NFL General Manager. So we just had the NFL draft a couple days ago. Really fascinating. I love the art of team building as a, you know, at least as a concept. Now, in reality, running a team is a totally different thing. But anyway, but yes, I do enjoy that part quite a bit. Definitely enjoy, you know, spending time with my wife or two multi poos, spending some time outside hiking around here and all the fun stuff.
Dina Simon 1:25
Yeah, and Arizona. So you shared earlier that you were from upstate New York, and how'd you get to Arizona?
Dr. K. 1:33
I went to high school and college. Well, High School in Poughkeepsie, I went to Cornell University for my undergrad. Graduated with degrees in Applied Economics and Management and Biology. Ended up working on for one of the premier Wall Street investment banks after I graduated. So this was 2005 and I had no idea what was coming down the line in that industry at that time. So couple years into it, here comes, you know, the crash and the great recession that followed. And you know, my mentality throughout all of it was just work harder, be a perfectionist, people pleaser, say yes to every opportunity. And it was already an industry that you you work really hard in. And on top of that, I just decided, you know what, I'm going to go even more above and beyond. So very often it was, you know, at minimum 60, but often 80, sometimes 100-hour work weeks and getting up in the middle of the night to answer the BlackBerry and whatever I needed to do in order to, well, in some ways, keep your job in the in those economic situations, but also get ahead. And so I was fortunate that I was able to, I was given some, some opportunities I was able to take advantage of. And so fast forward to 2011 and I was in back at home, after after a long day at work, and I was in my own apartment, the first studio, high rise, 30th floor, brand new buildings, first apartment I've ever had to myself without a roommate, and I was in my late 20s, and I'm looking out over the horizon, I just see these 1000s of, you know, little lights across the sky, and just reflecting on all the sacrifice that it took to get to that moment, I'd been promoted to Associate and then VP, faster than anyone in my department had to that point. I was able to pay off my undergraduate student loans, able to pay off my parents credit card debt. I was giving more to charity than I ever thought I could at that age, and I hated the man in the mirror. I was at a place where I had all these things that people said you're supposed to have to be happy, and yet I wasn't. The only thing I really wanted was a great relationship and marriage and, you know, meaningful work. And I just felt, I felt like I was, I was not living my calling. I just didn't know what that calling was. So at a certain point you're just, you just you just put your head down and you keep working. It was the only tool I had in the toolbox and hoping that something would would materialize. But I just found myself in burnout and further and further in that realm. And so ultimately, I hit rock bottom. And rock bottom is an interesting place, because it's when you're willing to say yes to the things that you otherwise would never say yes to. I saw my sister after a three month window of time, and in that three months, she had lost 30 pounds, her cystic acne had vanished, and she was just vibrant and happy as ever. And I just said, Okay, what did you do? Like, whatever you did I'm going to do. And she goes, I've just been eating this whole food, plant based diet, mostly raw foods. And I said, What does that mean exactly? And she goes, I've just been eating fresh fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds, just as I found from the earth. And oh, my God, that sounds horrible. Show me how to do this. And so I, I realized, though, at that moment in time, because I had gone cold turkey on diets and, you know, P 90x and other exercise programs and things like that. And I just said, my best ideas in life have gotten me here. And so why don't I do something different? And so I gradually just changed the way I ate and just released expectation just see what happens. And within three weeks, I was at the lowest weight I'd ever been as an adult. And in that moment when I looked at the scale that morning, that's when I realized, wait a second, what if the confidence I wanted, the relationship I wanted, the life I wanted? What if all these things are possible? What if the only thing holding me back was me? And so that was, that was my first kind of awakening into, well, what is my own potential? What are the things that I have not allowed myself to experience? Yes, very successful and high achieving in all these ways. But there's more to success than just hitting those benchmarks. There's your personal life. There's your health. How do you? How do you maximize those as well? And so I, you know, I just go to work. I'd bring my green juices to the office. Didn't tell anybody what I was doing, but people started noticing the changes, and they asked for some advice, and I'd bring in recipes and things that they could try and and people started making some lifestyle changes. And, yeah, they lost weight, but I saw type two diabetes vanish, hypertension, chronic migraines, chronic joint pain, and I had no idea what I was doing, but seeing, seeing the life come back to people's faces, right? That was, that was something that just it inspired me. And so I was doing some digging. I found out about naturopathic medicine, and that's what brought me to Arizona. Back in 2013, I left my Wall Street career to go to medical school in my early 30s, start over. It was the worst financial decision I've ever made in my life, but totally had to be done. And actually, in medical school, I did meet the love of my life. So we got married a year after medical school, and as far as the meaningful work, what it led me down this path of understanding, okay, yes, you know, there's so much we can do in aiding the body and healing itself. But I also noticed a lot of times with the patients I was working with, if they identified too heavily with their diagnosis, it was an obstacle for them to actually cure and I recognize when we're talking about burnout and overwhelm and mental health challenges in general, we've got generally, two approaches, right? We've got your counseling and psychotherapy. You've got your medications and psychiatry, and both are very necessary for different people in different situations. I'm a huge fan of counseling, especially EMDR, and certainly the medication side acutely for certain people certain situations absolutely needed and so, but at the same time, my journey to emotional health came through food. And so there's more to this picture than that, and that's where, you know, I developed my five pillars of emotional health. And all of that came from, ultimately, that journey of moving from from New York to Arizona, and, you know, building, building, a different life out here.
Speaker 1 8:15
You mentioned your your your sister was the one who really spurred you on to go ahead and do this here. Why did she try to do it?
Dr. K. 8:25
So she had always been probably more on the cutting edge of what I would call fringe diets at the time, and or other she was into removing toxic chemicals or processed foods long before I was but when she found something that worked so well for her own journey, and my thought process was simply like, Well, clearly, we are genetically similar, so if something works for you, it's probably gonna work for me. That was really the guiding force. But realistically, if I look back on my life, there's really three, there's really three main times that even when she was young, even though she was five years younger than me, but she was just always such a inspiring person for me to learn from. And so whether it was the college that I ended up going, to making this lifestyle change, or even having the courage to ask Samantha out, my advisor, my sister was, was like, just do it, you know? And so, so she's been instrumental for major shifts in my life, for sure.
Dina Simon 9:38
Oh, I love that.
John S. 9:39
Which is great being that she's five years younger, but yeah, she almost was a mentor to you at that point.
Dr. K. 9:45
Absolutely. Yeah, there's, there's different, different areas that we we support each other, but I think it's sometimes that ability to just zoom out, it's so hard for us, right, to see ourselves clearly through our own eyes. And so, you know she, she knows me. As well as anyone. So to get her insight is always very valuable.
John S. 10:05
Can you take a few minutes, and you mentioned it a second ago, the five pillars of emotional health? You want to expand upon that a little bit?
Dr. K. 10:14
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So I'll ask this for both of you. So let's say this plant back here is is dying. So I've got a plant, house plant, it's not doing so well. What would you suggest I do to revive it? Give it water. Okay, we got water. What else? Yeah, food, soil, sun, sun,
John S. 10:36
yeah. Make make sure, yeah. Make sure that it has either plenty of sun or plenty of shade, depending on what the you know, what the tree needs to, you know, to continue to grow. Absolutely. Same thing we the same things we need.
Dr. K. 10:50
Uh huh, that's exactly where I'm going. And notice how you didn't say, Let's find it the right medication, right? That's not our instinct. Because we instinct. We intuitively know that the plant is an organism that is designed for nature, and if it's not thriving, it's probably just not getting what it needs to thrive. The human being is also designed for nature. We experience more more incidents that trigger a stress response in one day now than we did in a lifetime 100 plus years ago. We're in a world that we are literally not designed for. Does that mean, you know, we have no hope? Absolutely not. We've got plenty. However, does mean that, let's understand what are the foundations for the human mind and body to be emotionally healthy? And that's the five pillars. So number one is your psychology, the study of your own mind. How do I think you know? How did my brain develop into the way it did today? What are my default patterns, belief systems, things like that. This is the lens through which you see the world. Everything that we experience in our life is a subjective reality, even though we treat it like an objective reality. So understanding that lens is vital because it's basically the operating system that that we run by. So whether we consider ourselves a leader or not, understanding our own mind is vital because it then allows us to better communicate with other people. So oftentimes I'll get asked by by companies to help them solve their communication challenges. That's what they think. It is a communication challenge. And so it's like, well, we've tried disc and we've tried other things, all very helpful tools. But you know what goes prior to that is, how can you communicate with somebody else if you don't understand your own mind first, right? And so understanding our own psychology is vital. Number two is relationships. We are the average of the five people and ideas that we spend the most time with. Many of us have heard that. And so when we look at who we spend our time with, we essentially become our environment. Right? Our environments influence us. We influence our environments. And so the easiest thing to do if we want to shift our emotional well being or habits or anything along those lines, is to put ourselves in an environment where that action becomes easier. It becomes automatic. If the plate of cookies is sitting on the table in the or on the counter in the kitchen, it's going to become relatively automatic that we just pick one up without thinking about it. If there is no unhealthy food in the house, then yes, we can still go eat it, but we might have to go to a restaurant to order something rather than it just being readily available. And so when you make that easier, it certainly helps. And the same thing applies for people. If we are around people who are who I call growth seekers, people that are willing to question the lens through which they see the world, constantly willing to expand their horizons, willing to try new things, even if they might fail at them. It becomes so much easier for us to do the same thing. The same thing applies in companies as well, is when you have a leader that is a growth seeker, a leader that is willing to, you know, be confident, yet humble, right, humble in that we don't know all the answers. And so maybe just regardless of somebody's status or position in the organization, if somebody has an idea willing to listen, right? Because that might be, that might be the difference between the group moving forward or not. And so that's but it takes a growth seekers mentality to do that, and also a growth seeker makes it safer for those around them to also be a growth seeker. It's really important. Number three is pillar of emotional health, is nutrition. So if you think about the serotonin, dopamine, GABA, all these vital neurotransmitters that directly regulate how we think, act and feel in our nervous system. 95 up to 95% of them are not even made in our own body. They're made by. Of the bacteria that live in our gut, and so to truly have proper nervous system function, we need to ensure that our gut microbiome, which is, you know, a result of the foods that we eat, are well taken care of the foods we eat, have a drastic effect not just on our emotional health, but metabolic function, hormone balance, immune function, the list goes on. So your gut health and emotional health are intricately connected. In fact, if you think about the vagus nerve, which is such a vital nerve for human life comes it's not part of the not part of the spinal column, it's a separate cranial nerve goes down and innervates your pacemaker to beat your heart, to the to keep your heart beating, to go down to your your diaphragm, so your your breathing, to your your intestines, so that the churning occurs and you digest food, vital functions, right? Only 10% of the fibers go from the brain to the gut. 90% of the fibers go from the gut to the brain. There's so much information that that is being transferred the other way around. So sometimes, when you have a gut feeling, there's kind of some truth to that. It's a second brain in a way. Number four pillar of emotional health is your sleep. It's the first thing to go and we're busy, but it's the best thing we can do for our long term brain health, sleep is the time when we process the day's events, when we commit things to long term memory, when our brain physiologically detoxifies. And so I am no fan of team, no sleep culture, hustle culture. I was that guy for a long time, and my hormone panel paid the price as a result of it. So it's one of those things that it may seem counterintuitive for productivity. You know, we certainly hear the, you know, the first one in last one out mentality. And certainly there's a ways to do that, but it's really a matter of prioritization. But prioritization does not have to come at the expense of sleep. And so for us to be the best that we can be leaders as people, sleep is vital. And then number five pillar of emotional health is body movement, because motion dictates emotion. And it's not just simply exercise. It can be just being in constant low grade motion. If you look at the longest lit populations on Earth, the Blue Zones. It's not that they exercise all the time. They just move around a lot. They walk to the store. They Yeah, they're riding their bikes. It's whenever they have an opportunity to move, they move. And so if that means at your desk, you have a standing desk or a treadmill under your desk, or or at least walk around the building every time you have a chance, that can go a really long way. So psychology, relationships, nutrition, sleep and body movement.
John S. 17:49
I'm assuming these the five pillars that we talk about here. You start acquiring them at a very young age. Changing is the hardest part.
Dr. K. 17:56
Absolutely, if you think about the human being, you think about any organism in nature. We're all in a state of homeostasis, which is an active balance. It's a little bit of give and take, a little bit of push and pull. It's a point of think about physics, minimal, at least localized potential energy. We're doing that so that effectively, it's a place of rest to change actually goes against our biology, because we're designed to conserve energy. Out in nature, energy is scarce. To go acquire food requires you travel around, you try to you know, maybe you're plucking fruits or hunting down an animal. Takes a tremendous amount of energy, and then we developed agriculture, so it's still a lot of work, but at least it's a little more localized. So it doesn't have, you don't have as much of the the traveling part of it. Then, you know, fast forward quite a bit. You got Industrial Revolution. You can process foods a little bit more. You've got your local markets, then the supermarkets, then the drive through, it takes even less energy. And now what a glorious world. You don't even have to get your butt off the sofa. You can have food delivered to your front door. And pretty soon, I'm sure we'll have those little robots that'll go get that food from the front door and plop it right on your coffee table. And that is a world we weren't designed for. That is a conservation of energy that makes us want to do that. So if you think about the human brain, it the brain uses more energy than any other organ in the human body, just to baseline exists. So it takes 20% of the body's energy just to send signals to the rest of your body to function, take in all the senses and process them. So when you're asking somebody to change behavior, it's essentially asking them to rewire their brain. And none of us want to do this, but we obviously do change. So why do we change? Us like. Any other organism, we change when it hurts enough, right? We change when it hurts enough. And we've all had those situations in life, like I talked about my rock bottom situation before. It was a point where, if I mean, I can continue living the way I am right now, but I'm going to keep getting the same results, so I'm willing to do something. And so that's where we can change when it hurts enough, or we can be a growth seeker and say, I'm not going to wait that long, even though it's a little bit uncomfortable to grow. It is certainly fulfilling. And so I'm going to make a point to change before we have to.
John S. 20:36
And you were fortunate to do it at such a young age.
Dina Simon 20:40
Yeah, yeah. So I have a question for you. So on the like, when you hit rock bottom and that burnout, and you had this opportunity to change your life so often, and I'm speaking for a friend, so often, when people are in those types of situations, like you were on Wall Street working 100 hours a week, so often, we leave that burnout and we put ourselves in another position where we're going to just do the same thing, because we bring ourselves to this next opportunity and we behave the same. So what would your advice be for people that you know get burned out, leave and then they go do the same thing, and it just is that repeating pattern like you talked about, you know, it just has to get painful enough that they want to make a change. But what are some of the other, you know, conversations that you would have with people that have that pattern
Dr. K. 21:30
Well, and it's not even just professional environments, it can be. I mean, think about how many times, you know, somebody might have gone through multiple relationships where they might have ended in a very similar way, you know. So when one of the concepts that I have developed, it's in my book, and I work with every client on it, whether it's an executive or the whole company. And it's called The Truth cycle. And essentially, it's a model to understand how our brains developed, how your brain developed, right specifically to you, and how does this influence our actions and outcomes going forward? So it's a it's a combination of of how our brains work, plus, you know how life unfolds. And so when you look at that, you you'll understand that eventually, you know the short part of short answer is, you know our we take in senses, sight, sound, etc, if it's something that we've never experienced before, let's say you're meeting somebody for a new for the first time, and you don't have any experience with them. Otherwise, that you're not necessarily immediately making any assumptions, except if you start noticing certain patterns, then you know so you take in senses, you start seeing patterns, and then ultimately, what happens is you you see these patterns enough, and you start assigning meaning to them. You create a story around those patterns to explain those patterns. The human mind is unique from other animals in that we can take senses to patterns, just like other animals can, but then those patterns become stories. The story is a vital thing for us to examine, because it happens automatically you cannot take so I'll give you an example here, and I challenge you not to explain this to yourself in your mind as you're hearing it next to impossible. So you come home, the fish bowl is knocked over. The fish is not there, the carpet is wet, and the cat is sitting on the sofa, kind of looking happy. What happened?
Dina Simon 23:39
Well, we're gonna assume the cat ate the fish,
Dr. K. 23:42
right? And did it? Did that fill in in your mind like right away, as I was telling you right.
John S. 23:47
Even before you finished.
Dr. K. 23:49
Even before I finished, right the it's called Bridging the information gap. If we have two pieces of data or multiple pieces of data, our brain can't just leave them out hanging. We have to build that connection so we create that story. If we see that story enough times, it just becomes something that we believe, a belief, to me, is something that we consciously are aware of. I I believe in this value. I believe in, you know, in treating people a certain way, that kind of thing. But ultimately, the moment it starts becoming unconscious to us. Now this is where it shifts to what I call a truth. Now the truth is our truth, your truth, right? It is entirely subjective. But what ends up happening is that now, when we take in these sights and sounds and all that stuff, and we recognize the pattern, the pattern is then quickly compared against the truth that we know this lens through which we see the world. Does it fit the lens? Does it not fit the lens? If it doesn't fit the lens, we reject it and move on. Why? Because we conserve energy that way. That's how we're built. If it fits the lens, then we move forward. If the truth dictates our actions. Because we're not going to take actions inconsistent with who we see ourselves to be. And certainly every action leads to an outcome, the outcomes then reinforce our truth. And so to bring it back to your question, Dina, because the lens through which we see the world influences our actions, and that leads to the outcomes. If we want new outcomes, the default is to try new actions. So for instance, think about New Year's resolutions. New year new me. I'm gonna go to the gym every day and eat differently every day. And some January 10 rolls around and it's Party's over, right? And it happens over and over. But why is that? We're trying to get new outcomes. We're starting at the level of action. And my premise is that we must start at the level of truth, understanding our own mind first. So if we know that we are prone to certain behaviors that have led to burnout, then understanding, why do I have that tendency? So bringing back to my example, why was I a perfectionist? Why was I a people pleaser? Why did I have this mentality that if I can't do it perfectly, it's not worth ever trying? Because, by the way, if we were born that way, none of us would be walking. If you ever seen a baby learn how to walk, right? They ever get it the first time? I don't know. I don't know of anyone that has seen a child learn how to walk the first time they tried it, right? Get up, you fall, you get up, you fall. And yet, how many times do we try something new as adults? And you know what? This is not for me, right? And it's it's so when we can understand where did this perfectionism come from, where the people pleasing come from, where the imposter syndrome come from, we start to examine these things and doing the work to shift that lens. Now, all of a sudden, the actions become different. The outcomes become different.
Dina Simon 26:45
Talk to us about a day to day or typical week, like, how are you working with people,you've talked a little bit about, maybe individuals, executives, teams. How do people work with you?
Dr. K. 26:54
So generally, there's three ways I work with entrepreneurs, executives in their companies. So the entrepreneurs are anywhere from solopreneurs up to say, 10 employees or so. I love working with them in my entrepreneur emotional support program, which is a group program. And basically here we're talking about all the things that affect us as human beings, but also we're wearing the hats of business owner. So a lot of times it's the, yes, I'm a business owner here, but I'm also a spouse, a parent. I'm wearing all these other hats, and I'm trying to be perfect in all these realms. And it's, it's one's bleeding over into the other, and it becomes very challenging to live a life free of the burnout and the overwhelm and all of those things. And so what I love about that group is we learn from each other. It's not just me answering questions or teaching. It's being able to recognize, okay, you know, there's there's people that are experts in their field, in different areas, and sometimes it's even fun to talk about, okay, if we're talking about, let's say, the stress that arises from not getting proper leads in our business, to have somebody in our group that's really good with the branding aspect. And we can talk about, okay, where's the what are the obstacles that that get in in your clients ways when it's when it comes to thinking they can DIY something as vital as being able to attract the right people. We can't even see ourselves objectively through our own eyes, right? And so many people try to do that with their businesses as well. And so we can talk about even the intersection of emotional health and business in different ways. So that's that's one area. Level two is Emotional Health Mastery, where I work with executives, one on one. So these are slightly larger companies, usually at this point, the the the owner, CEO, is no longer working in the business as much, and they're working on the business, a lot of the things, you know, translate, certainly into leadership skills and things that they may not have developed in the past. But it's also, you know, it's understanding their own emotional health, but it's also understanding that of their team and how to handle some certain sensitive situations, things like that. The third level is the emotionally healthy company, where I work with the executive team and the whole company with group workshops. That's my favorite, because that's where we can really create cultures of where people can come to work and become better people. As a result of it, turnover becomes extremely low. They feel supported by their teammates. It's certainly not for every organization. I will say that it only works for the companies that the business owner wants to engage in becoming the best version of themselves. And they're willing to be, they're willing to put in the work too. And when that happens, though it's it's magic, because. It makes it safe for everybody else to, you know, to engage and become the best version of themselves.
Dina Simon 30:07
Did you find during COVID, I know a lot of my clients, and just kind of the larger, I guess my larger kind of lens was there were a lot of companies that were trying to figure out how to be super supportive during the pandemic, from the mental health aspect, the movement aspect, how do we have these conversations with our staff that are out now remote, where maybe we used to have them more in house, but then I feel like some of those companies that actually had a budget for wellness and programming now that we're in 25 and moving into, you know, almost halfway through this year, are kind of forgetting about it. I've seen people, you know, just kind of back off, unfortunately, because I do agree with you the value of it. But have you seen any shifts over the last couple of years coming out of the pandemic?
Dr. K. 30:54
It's interesting. I've found that the ones who invested heavily into that with a certain mentality. Because sometimes it's we, we make a choice in business because it's necessary. Other times we make a choice because we believe it's the right thing to do. And what I found is that the leaders who believe it's the right thing to do, they're thriving. I mean, they're to them. So to give you an idea, my first emotionally healthy company client, I met with them a couple of weeks ago with both the owners. Normally, I work with each of them individually. We did kind of a group session to talk vision, long term stuff like that, personal aspects too. But you know, they're they're in a situation right now that's a little tenuous financially based on macroeconomic situations and all that. You know, they're having to make some difficult choices. But one of the owners said, look, as far as I'm concerned, getting our employees. So one thing they do is they they buy them lunches every day, and they're hourly employees, and they are on the clock. So if you think about it, for somebody that's making, say, $20 an hour to get a free lunch and to be paid for that hour is a huge is huge, right? It adds up tremendously. So he said, that's something we've done from day one, and it's something that I believe in, and it's part of who we are that's not going away. I will not let it go away. It's part of what we do. And so the companies that I've certainly the ones that I work with in emotionally healthy company over the long run, but others as well that recognize that the mentality is this, I am in business to provide great opportunities for great people, and if I take care of them. They will take care of the clients. The clients feed the business, and the business feeds me. So their number one priority is creating a business that is, that is in existence to love on their team. And for them, I've I've certainly not noticed them pulled back. The ones that have pulled back are kind of the ones that are, in some cases, kind of checking the box, and certainly not the ones that I'm a good fit for, that's for sure,
John S. 33:13
You know. And as you say, the where you buy the lunches, or you have little things that you do for your your employees at that point. And you can do that as an entrepreneur. Sometimes you get into a big corporation, it becomes much harder to do. And as an entrepreneur, you're looking at or saying, okay, I have a fiduciary responsibility to these people, not only for me, but for their future, so that they can go what I'm not here any longer. How does this company survive?
Dr. K. 33:42
Yeah, that's vital. You know, that legacy component of it is you think about, what does it take to set up the culture of an organization so that even after we're no longer a part of it, that those values live on? And certainly, yes, it is. It is a lot easier. I think when you are a privately owned company, you don't have public shareholders, or maybe it's not a, you know, owned by private equity, there's, there's a lot less external factors, and you can operate like, okay, you know what? I'm I have a, I have a client right now, who's he's, well, three years one of the emotionally healthy company clients, and he owns a wealth management firm out in Houston, and he said, Look, I can, I can have a little bit better profit margin, and I can take that home, and that money can sit with me and do nothing, you know, or I can take a little bit of that profit margin and make sure that my team gets what they need to really grow as human beings and love the work that they do here, and love working here. And. And he's never had to replace an employee, right? He's never had to do it.
Dina Simon 35:04
Yeah, because they're bought in, and they're they feel that they're cared for. Somebody's investing in them. They're learning, they're growing. There's just so, yeah, there's so much there, and it's wonderful, because there are those good companies out there in and it just is, you know, trying to get other companies, like you said, not just be checking the boxes, but actually do the right things. Yeah,
Dr. K. 35:27
Well, and there's a, there's an ROI to that too. I mean, just there was a company that I met, I want to say, three years ago at this point, and they had just gone through, they've been in business for about 10 years, gone through a massive growth that previous 12 months, doubled the size of their company, so their staff doubled as well, and didn't, didn't end up, you know, becoming a client. But I kind of recognized that the way that they thought was a little bit different probably wouldn't have been a good fit anyway, but the the struggle that they went through in that growing process was so they ended up paying a recruiting firm about $60,000 to hire two people. They eventually two people there, but they eventually had hired 10 people through other sources as well. So they added on these 10 people, and unfortunately, because they hired certain people that probably weren't such a good fit, that ended up driving out two of their pre existing best employees, and then the people that they brought on that drove out the other two, then they left themselves. And like, the cost of replacing your best, like, where do you you know, it's huge versus you take care of the ones you have. You have. You give them opportunities to grow. It doesn't mean that they won't leave, but if they do leave, it's hopefully for something that inspires you, right? Like they want to start their own business, they want to do something, you know, and then now they you still have that connection to them, you know. Maybe they become a client or a vendor, whatever it is, right? There's, there's so many possibilities. But again, when you operate from a place of employees are an expense, it's just never gonna happen.
Dina Simon 37:07
I was actually just before we did this, about an hour ago, I was talking with somebody that I did some project work for a couple years ago. And she always called people that left her organization, her alumni, and she, you know, she would follow them. She was 5-10, years later, so proud of the things that they did. And so you're exactly the right like, hopefully, hopefully their time there is everything it needs to be, and then when they leave, it's for the right reasons, and you can celebrate that and watch people continue to grow. Yeah. So, life, leadership, legacy. So you've talked a little bit. We've talked about some corporate culture legacy, and business owner legacy, you are building an amazing legacy, and all the things that you're doing, all the people that you're touching. But what else comes to mind? As in, in kind of wrapping up as we talk about legacy. What does legacy mean to you?
Dr. K. 37:58
To me, legacy is intricately tied with purpose, life, purpose, right? And I think that goes beyond family. Family's certainly a part of it. But I think the deepest sense of purpose comes from making an impact that is meaningful to you, that even if it doesn't last beyond our lifetime, but to know that during the time that we are here on Earth, we made this difference that is living a life without regret. And it is, I think that's if you look at the four areas that I look at as far as for human needs, stability, there's a roof over our head, food in our bellies, money, really, and how we make that happen in modern life, belonging, whether that's our families, our friends, our companies, our communities. Number three is growth, the need to continue to grow and feel like we are better today than we were yesterday. But the fourth one is purpose, and so even for the the the executives I've worked with, who certainly are in a good place, stability wise, great sense of belonging. They're growing in all they're hungry for growth in all the different ways. But they don't have that North Star of the What's it for? Right? That? What is it for? That sense of purpose? Once you figure that out, that becomes a legacy, in my opinion, right? Because now, Legacy doesn't have to be something that exists after we're gone. We were living it day in and day out. We're recruiting other people who share that same vision, and we can make a difference that way. Because, you know, now, now, when you're making a difference in somebody's life today, everything that they do from here on out, you know, we have a, yeah, we have, we have a tiny part in their story. And so it's a beautiful thing.
Dina Simon 39:45
It's a beautiful thing. Oh my gosh.
John S. 39:47
And the other thing you find out in business, you don't always need to be liked, but you always need to be respected.
Dr. K. 39:55
Yeah, for sure, it's something that I think a lot of people get caught up on is they want to be liked, so oftentimes they will make choices that are actually destructive. Yes, and I think it's important to, I mean, even just think about feedback.
Dina Simon 40:11
Yes, feedback is kind.
Dr. K. 40:13
Feedback, yeah, but feedback can be.
Dina Simon 40:16
as long as it's given in the right yes.
Dr. K. 40:18
Yes, given in the right thing. Because if you've got the kind feedback that, okay, that feels good, or the, you know, the
Dina Simon 40:25
No real feedback is kind Yes, like, yeh.
Dr. K. 40:28
But real feedback is the one that is constructive, and not something that's like, Oh, that's such a great idea. You should totally do that, even though that idea has no legs and you're probably gonna waste money well.
Dina Simon 40:37
And so, dr, K, do you have any clients in Minnesota?
Dr. K. 40:40
I don't. I do have Michigan clients. I do not have any Minnesota clients.
Dina Simon 40:43
So in Minnesota, we have a sickness called Minnesota Nice. Okay? And it's actually not nice. It is actually a passive aggressive so, so we actually have a real issue here, because people cannot give like that really just that real, like nice, constructive feedback. Like people are so afraid to do it, so they so it's then the opposite. And so it's a, it's an interesting culture thing. Back here in Minnesota, when somebody was somebody that could fix that for the state, would be the very wealthy.
Dr. K. 41:17
That's Minnesota, nice. I've learned something new today. Yeah, it's, it's, I think for for a lot of us, right? We have this desire to be a good person, and being kind to other people or nice other people is what we what we view as the right thing to do. However, if being nice to them comes at the expense of, let's say, their well being, because they're guided down a path that it's not going to serve them, or because we physically can't say something that is constructive, that that might require a little bit of forthright truth telling, then it just comes out as actually being a very destructive thing.
Dina Simon 42:01
Yeah, yeah, absolutely anything else that you wanted our podcast listeners to hear or know about you?
Dr. K. 42:09
Yeah. I would just say this. Nobody in the history of the world has had your set of experiences, the tragedies, the triumphs nobody's had, your family, your life experiences, your set of skills. There's never been a single person that has walked this planet, that has lived your life. And yet we spend all this time trying to compare ourselves to other people or what we should be doing, and we use that word should so much in relation to ourselves. And I would just say this, where does that come from? You know, where does the should come from? There's nobody that has had your story. Therefore you are undefeated at being you. So find a path that is not a reflection of who you used to be. Craft a vision of the ideal version of yourself. Live into that vision, and that's the formula to stop chasing joy and begin living in wonder.
Dina Simon 43:12
I love it. Well said, well said, well, thank you so much for being on our podcast. It was just awesome to hear everything that you've gone through and now how you are taking that to have that amazing ripple effect with individuals and companies and everything you talked about. We're going to make sure that all of the show notes and stuff people know how to get in touch with you, how to get your book, how to work with you, but just really appreciate the conversation.
Dr. K. 43:36
Thank you for having me. I had a great time.
John S. 43:39
great talking with you, Dr K.
Dina Simon 43:42
I would like to thank Dr K for joining us today on the podcast, great conversation. We'll make sure you know how to get in touch with him in all of the show notes. Make sure you follow Him. Grab his book, and if you want to change your life and and stop chasing joy and begin living in wonder. Make sure you hire him to work with you, individually or within your company. As always, I'd like to thank my father in law, John Simon, for joining me as my co-host, and we are a proud member of the C suite radio, until we talk again.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Welcome to Simon Says, inspire a podcast about life, leadership and building legacies. I'm John Simon, SR and I'm Dina Simon. Our guest today is Dr. Karthik Ramanan. Dr K is the emotional health mentor to entrepreneurs, executives and their companies. Dr K, welcome to our podcast.
Dr. K. 0:28
I'm glad to be here. Thank you, John and Dina.
John S. 0:31
Why don't you take a minute or two, Dr K, and maybe tell the audience a little bit about yourself, maybe where you live and what you'd like to do in your spare time.
Dr. K. 0:40
Absolutely, so I am in Phoenix, Arizona. Have been for 12 years, actually, 12 years as of two days ago. Nice as of us recording today. And as far as what I love to do in my spare time, I like to say, in an alternate universe, I would be an NFL General Manager. So we just had the NFL draft a couple days ago. Really fascinating. I love the art of team building as a, you know, at least as a concept. Now, in reality, running a team is a totally different thing. But anyway, but yes, I do enjoy that part quite a bit. Definitely enjoy, you know, spending time with my wife or two multi poos, spending some time outside hiking around here and all the fun stuff.
Dina Simon 1:25
Yeah, and Arizona. So you shared earlier that you were from upstate New York, and how'd you get to Arizona?
Dr. K. 1:33
I went to high school and college. Well, High School in Poughkeepsie, I went to Cornell University for my undergrad. Graduated with degrees in Applied Economics and Management and Biology. Ended up working on for one of the premier Wall Street investment banks after I graduated. So this was 2005 and I had no idea what was coming down the line in that industry at that time. So couple years into it, here comes, you know, the crash and the great recession that followed. And you know, my mentality throughout all of it was just work harder, be a perfectionist, people pleaser, say yes to every opportunity. And it was already an industry that you you work really hard in. And on top of that, I just decided, you know what, I'm going to go even more above and beyond. So very often it was, you know, at minimum 60, but often 80, sometimes 100-hour work weeks and getting up in the middle of the night to answer the BlackBerry and whatever I needed to do in order to, well, in some ways, keep your job in the in those economic situations, but also get ahead. And so I was fortunate that I was able to, I was given some, some opportunities I was able to take advantage of. And so fast forward to 2011 and I was in back at home, after after a long day at work, and I was in my own apartment, the first studio, high rise, 30th floor, brand new buildings, first apartment I've ever had to myself without a roommate, and I was in my late 20s, and I'm looking out over the horizon, I just see these 1000s of, you know, little lights across the sky, and just reflecting on all the sacrifice that it took to get to that moment, I'd been promoted to Associate and then VP, faster than anyone in my department had to that point. I was able to pay off my undergraduate student loans, able to pay off my parents credit card debt. I was giving more to charity than I ever thought I could at that age, and I hated the man in the mirror. I was at a place where I had all these things that people said you're supposed to have to be happy, and yet I wasn't. The only thing I really wanted was a great relationship and marriage and, you know, meaningful work. And I just felt, I felt like I was, I was not living my calling. I just didn't know what that calling was. So at a certain point you're just, you just you just put your head down and you keep working. It was the only tool I had in the toolbox and hoping that something would would materialize. But I just found myself in burnout and further and further in that realm. And so ultimately, I hit rock bottom. And rock bottom is an interesting place, because it's when you're willing to say yes to the things that you otherwise would never say yes to. I saw my sister after a three month window of time, and in that three months, she had lost 30 pounds, her cystic acne had vanished, and she was just vibrant and happy as ever. And I just said, Okay, what did you do? Like, whatever you did I'm going to do. And she goes, I've just been eating this whole food, plant based diet, mostly raw foods. And I said, What does that mean exactly? And she goes, I've just been eating fresh fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds, just as I found from the earth. And oh, my God, that sounds horrible. Show me how to do this. And so I, I realized, though, at that moment in time, because I had gone cold turkey on diets and, you know, P 90x and other exercise programs and things like that. And I just said, my best ideas in life have gotten me here. And so why don't I do something different? And so I gradually just changed the way I ate and just released expectation just see what happens. And within three weeks, I was at the lowest weight I'd ever been as an adult. And in that moment when I looked at the scale that morning, that's when I realized, wait a second, what if the confidence I wanted, the relationship I wanted, the life I wanted? What if all these things are possible? What if the only thing holding me back was me? And so that was, that was my first kind of awakening into, well, what is my own potential? What are the things that I have not allowed myself to experience? Yes, very successful and high achieving in all these ways. But there's more to success than just hitting those benchmarks. There's your personal life. There's your health. How do you? How do you maximize those as well? And so I, you know, I just go to work. I'd bring my green juices to the office. Didn't tell anybody what I was doing, but people started noticing the changes, and they asked for some advice, and I'd bring in recipes and things that they could try and and people started making some lifestyle changes. And, yeah, they lost weight, but I saw type two diabetes vanish, hypertension, chronic migraines, chronic joint pain, and I had no idea what I was doing, but seeing, seeing the life come back to people's faces, right? That was, that was something that just it inspired me. And so I was doing some digging. I found out about naturopathic medicine, and that's what brought me to Arizona. Back in 2013, I left my Wall Street career to go to medical school in my early 30s, start over. It was the worst financial decision I've ever made in my life, but totally had to be done. And actually, in medical school, I did meet the love of my life. So we got married a year after medical school, and as far as the meaningful work, what it led me down this path of understanding, okay, yes, you know, there's so much we can do in aiding the body and healing itself. But I also noticed a lot of times with the patients I was working with, if they identified too heavily with their diagnosis, it was an obstacle for them to actually cure and I recognize when we're talking about burnout and overwhelm and mental health challenges in general, we've got generally, two approaches, right? We've got your counseling and psychotherapy. You've got your medications and psychiatry, and both are very necessary for different people in different situations. I'm a huge fan of counseling, especially EMDR, and certainly the medication side acutely for certain people certain situations absolutely needed and so, but at the same time, my journey to emotional health came through food. And so there's more to this picture than that, and that's where, you know, I developed my five pillars of emotional health. And all of that came from, ultimately, that journey of moving from from New York to Arizona, and, you know, building, building, a different life out here.
Speaker 1 8:15
You mentioned your your your sister was the one who really spurred you on to go ahead and do this here. Why did she try to do it?
Dr. K. 8:25
So she had always been probably more on the cutting edge of what I would call fringe diets at the time, and or other she was into removing toxic chemicals or processed foods long before I was but when she found something that worked so well for her own journey, and my thought process was simply like, Well, clearly, we are genetically similar, so if something works for you, it's probably gonna work for me. That was really the guiding force. But realistically, if I look back on my life, there's really three, there's really three main times that even when she was young, even though she was five years younger than me, but she was just always such a inspiring person for me to learn from. And so whether it was the college that I ended up going, to making this lifestyle change, or even having the courage to ask Samantha out, my advisor, my sister was, was like, just do it, you know? And so, so she's been instrumental for major shifts in my life, for sure.
Dina Simon 9:38
Oh, I love that.
John S. 9:39
Which is great being that she's five years younger, but yeah, she almost was a mentor to you at that point.
Dr. K. 9:45
Absolutely. Yeah, there's, there's different, different areas that we we support each other, but I think it's sometimes that ability to just zoom out, it's so hard for us, right, to see ourselves clearly through our own eyes. And so, you know she, she knows me. As well as anyone. So to get her insight is always very valuable.
John S. 10:05
Can you take a few minutes, and you mentioned it a second ago, the five pillars of emotional health? You want to expand upon that a little bit?
Dr. K. 10:14
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So I'll ask this for both of you. So let's say this plant back here is is dying. So I've got a plant, house plant, it's not doing so well. What would you suggest I do to revive it? Give it water. Okay, we got water. What else? Yeah, food, soil, sun, sun,
John S. 10:36
yeah. Make make sure, yeah. Make sure that it has either plenty of sun or plenty of shade, depending on what the you know, what the tree needs to, you know, to continue to grow. Absolutely. Same thing we the same things we need.
Dr. K. 10:50
Uh huh, that's exactly where I'm going. And notice how you didn't say, Let's find it the right medication, right? That's not our instinct. Because we instinct. We intuitively know that the plant is an organism that is designed for nature, and if it's not thriving, it's probably just not getting what it needs to thrive. The human being is also designed for nature. We experience more more incidents that trigger a stress response in one day now than we did in a lifetime 100 plus years ago. We're in a world that we are literally not designed for. Does that mean, you know, we have no hope? Absolutely not. We've got plenty. However, does mean that, let's understand what are the foundations for the human mind and body to be emotionally healthy? And that's the five pillars. So number one is your psychology, the study of your own mind. How do I think you know? How did my brain develop into the way it did today? What are my default patterns, belief systems, things like that. This is the lens through which you see the world. Everything that we experience in our life is a subjective reality, even though we treat it like an objective reality. So understanding that lens is vital because it's basically the operating system that that we run by. So whether we consider ourselves a leader or not, understanding our own mind is vital because it then allows us to better communicate with other people. So oftentimes I'll get asked by by companies to help them solve their communication challenges. That's what they think. It is a communication challenge. And so it's like, well, we've tried disc and we've tried other things, all very helpful tools. But you know what goes prior to that is, how can you communicate with somebody else if you don't understand your own mind first, right? And so understanding our own psychology is vital. Number two is relationships. We are the average of the five people and ideas that we spend the most time with. Many of us have heard that. And so when we look at who we spend our time with, we essentially become our environment. Right? Our environments influence us. We influence our environments. And so the easiest thing to do if we want to shift our emotional well being or habits or anything along those lines, is to put ourselves in an environment where that action becomes easier. It becomes automatic. If the plate of cookies is sitting on the table in the or on the counter in the kitchen, it's going to become relatively automatic that we just pick one up without thinking about it. If there is no unhealthy food in the house, then yes, we can still go eat it, but we might have to go to a restaurant to order something rather than it just being readily available. And so when you make that easier, it certainly helps. And the same thing applies for people. If we are around people who are who I call growth seekers, people that are willing to question the lens through which they see the world, constantly willing to expand their horizons, willing to try new things, even if they might fail at them. It becomes so much easier for us to do the same thing. The same thing applies in companies as well, is when you have a leader that is a growth seeker, a leader that is willing to, you know, be confident, yet humble, right, humble in that we don't know all the answers. And so maybe just regardless of somebody's status or position in the organization, if somebody has an idea willing to listen, right? Because that might be, that might be the difference between the group moving forward or not. And so that's but it takes a growth seekers mentality to do that, and also a growth seeker makes it safer for those around them to also be a growth seeker. It's really important. Number three is pillar of emotional health, is nutrition. So if you think about the serotonin, dopamine, GABA, all these vital neurotransmitters that directly regulate how we think, act and feel in our nervous system. 95 up to 95% of them are not even made in our own body. They're made by. Of the bacteria that live in our gut, and so to truly have proper nervous system function, we need to ensure that our gut microbiome, which is, you know, a result of the foods that we eat, are well taken care of the foods we eat, have a drastic effect not just on our emotional health, but metabolic function, hormone balance, immune function, the list goes on. So your gut health and emotional health are intricately connected. In fact, if you think about the vagus nerve, which is such a vital nerve for human life comes it's not part of the not part of the spinal column, it's a separate cranial nerve goes down and innervates your pacemaker to beat your heart, to the to keep your heart beating, to go down to your your diaphragm, so your your breathing, to your your intestines, so that the churning occurs and you digest food, vital functions, right? Only 10% of the fibers go from the brain to the gut. 90% of the fibers go from the gut to the brain. There's so much information that that is being transferred the other way around. So sometimes, when you have a gut feeling, there's kind of some truth to that. It's a second brain in a way. Number four pillar of emotional health is your sleep. It's the first thing to go and we're busy, but it's the best thing we can do for our long term brain health, sleep is the time when we process the day's events, when we commit things to long term memory, when our brain physiologically detoxifies. And so I am no fan of team, no sleep culture, hustle culture. I was that guy for a long time, and my hormone panel paid the price as a result of it. So it's one of those things that it may seem counterintuitive for productivity. You know, we certainly hear the, you know, the first one in last one out mentality. And certainly there's a ways to do that, but it's really a matter of prioritization. But prioritization does not have to come at the expense of sleep. And so for us to be the best that we can be leaders as people, sleep is vital. And then number five pillar of emotional health is body movement, because motion dictates emotion. And it's not just simply exercise. It can be just being in constant low grade motion. If you look at the longest lit populations on Earth, the Blue Zones. It's not that they exercise all the time. They just move around a lot. They walk to the store. They Yeah, they're riding their bikes. It's whenever they have an opportunity to move, they move. And so if that means at your desk, you have a standing desk or a treadmill under your desk, or or at least walk around the building every time you have a chance, that can go a really long way. So psychology, relationships, nutrition, sleep and body movement.
John S. 17:49
I'm assuming these the five pillars that we talk about here. You start acquiring them at a very young age. Changing is the hardest part.
Dr. K. 17:56
Absolutely, if you think about the human being, you think about any organism in nature. We're all in a state of homeostasis, which is an active balance. It's a little bit of give and take, a little bit of push and pull. It's a point of think about physics, minimal, at least localized potential energy. We're doing that so that effectively, it's a place of rest to change actually goes against our biology, because we're designed to conserve energy. Out in nature, energy is scarce. To go acquire food requires you travel around, you try to you know, maybe you're plucking fruits or hunting down an animal. Takes a tremendous amount of energy, and then we developed agriculture, so it's still a lot of work, but at least it's a little more localized. So it doesn't have, you don't have as much of the the traveling part of it. Then, you know, fast forward quite a bit. You got Industrial Revolution. You can process foods a little bit more. You've got your local markets, then the supermarkets, then the drive through, it takes even less energy. And now what a glorious world. You don't even have to get your butt off the sofa. You can have food delivered to your front door. And pretty soon, I'm sure we'll have those little robots that'll go get that food from the front door and plop it right on your coffee table. And that is a world we weren't designed for. That is a conservation of energy that makes us want to do that. So if you think about the human brain, it the brain uses more energy than any other organ in the human body, just to baseline exists. So it takes 20% of the body's energy just to send signals to the rest of your body to function, take in all the senses and process them. So when you're asking somebody to change behavior, it's essentially asking them to rewire their brain. And none of us want to do this, but we obviously do change. So why do we change? Us like. Any other organism, we change when it hurts enough, right? We change when it hurts enough. And we've all had those situations in life, like I talked about my rock bottom situation before. It was a point where, if I mean, I can continue living the way I am right now, but I'm going to keep getting the same results, so I'm willing to do something. And so that's where we can change when it hurts enough, or we can be a growth seeker and say, I'm not going to wait that long, even though it's a little bit uncomfortable to grow. It is certainly fulfilling. And so I'm going to make a point to change before we have to.
John S. 20:36
And you were fortunate to do it at such a young age.
Dina Simon 20:40
Yeah, yeah. So I have a question for you. So on the like, when you hit rock bottom and that burnout, and you had this opportunity to change your life so often, and I'm speaking for a friend, so often, when people are in those types of situations, like you were on Wall Street working 100 hours a week, so often, we leave that burnout and we put ourselves in another position where we're going to just do the same thing, because we bring ourselves to this next opportunity and we behave the same. So what would your advice be for people that you know get burned out, leave and then they go do the same thing, and it just is that repeating pattern like you talked about, you know, it just has to get painful enough that they want to make a change. But what are some of the other, you know, conversations that you would have with people that have that pattern
Dr. K. 21:30
Well, and it's not even just professional environments, it can be. I mean, think about how many times, you know, somebody might have gone through multiple relationships where they might have ended in a very similar way, you know. So when one of the concepts that I have developed, it's in my book, and I work with every client on it, whether it's an executive or the whole company. And it's called The Truth cycle. And essentially, it's a model to understand how our brains developed, how your brain developed, right specifically to you, and how does this influence our actions and outcomes going forward? So it's a it's a combination of of how our brains work, plus, you know how life unfolds. And so when you look at that, you you'll understand that eventually, you know the short part of short answer is, you know our we take in senses, sight, sound, etc, if it's something that we've never experienced before, let's say you're meeting somebody for a new for the first time, and you don't have any experience with them. Otherwise, that you're not necessarily immediately making any assumptions, except if you start noticing certain patterns, then you know so you take in senses, you start seeing patterns, and then ultimately, what happens is you you see these patterns enough, and you start assigning meaning to them. You create a story around those patterns to explain those patterns. The human mind is unique from other animals in that we can take senses to patterns, just like other animals can, but then those patterns become stories. The story is a vital thing for us to examine, because it happens automatically you cannot take so I'll give you an example here, and I challenge you not to explain this to yourself in your mind as you're hearing it next to impossible. So you come home, the fish bowl is knocked over. The fish is not there, the carpet is wet, and the cat is sitting on the sofa, kind of looking happy. What happened?
Dina Simon 23:39
Well, we're gonna assume the cat ate the fish,
Dr. K. 23:42
right? And did it? Did that fill in in your mind like right away, as I was telling you right.
John S. 23:47
Even before you finished.
Dr. K. 23:49
Even before I finished, right the it's called Bridging the information gap. If we have two pieces of data or multiple pieces of data, our brain can't just leave them out hanging. We have to build that connection so we create that story. If we see that story enough times, it just becomes something that we believe, a belief, to me, is something that we consciously are aware of. I I believe in this value. I believe in, you know, in treating people a certain way, that kind of thing. But ultimately, the moment it starts becoming unconscious to us. Now this is where it shifts to what I call a truth. Now the truth is our truth, your truth, right? It is entirely subjective. But what ends up happening is that now, when we take in these sights and sounds and all that stuff, and we recognize the pattern, the pattern is then quickly compared against the truth that we know this lens through which we see the world. Does it fit the lens? Does it not fit the lens? If it doesn't fit the lens, we reject it and move on. Why? Because we conserve energy that way. That's how we're built. If it fits the lens, then we move forward. If the truth dictates our actions. Because we're not going to take actions inconsistent with who we see ourselves to be. And certainly every action leads to an outcome, the outcomes then reinforce our truth. And so to bring it back to your question, Dina, because the lens through which we see the world influences our actions, and that leads to the outcomes. If we want new outcomes, the default is to try new actions. So for instance, think about New Year's resolutions. New year new me. I'm gonna go to the gym every day and eat differently every day. And some January 10 rolls around and it's Party's over, right? And it happens over and over. But why is that? We're trying to get new outcomes. We're starting at the level of action. And my premise is that we must start at the level of truth, understanding our own mind first. So if we know that we are prone to certain behaviors that have led to burnout, then understanding, why do I have that tendency? So bringing back to my example, why was I a perfectionist? Why was I a people pleaser? Why did I have this mentality that if I can't do it perfectly, it's not worth ever trying? Because, by the way, if we were born that way, none of us would be walking. If you ever seen a baby learn how to walk, right? They ever get it the first time? I don't know. I don't know of anyone that has seen a child learn how to walk the first time they tried it, right? Get up, you fall, you get up, you fall. And yet, how many times do we try something new as adults? And you know what? This is not for me, right? And it's it's so when we can understand where did this perfectionism come from, where the people pleasing come from, where the imposter syndrome come from, we start to examine these things and doing the work to shift that lens. Now, all of a sudden, the actions become different. The outcomes become different.
Dina Simon 26:45
Talk to us about a day to day or typical week, like, how are you working with people,you've talked a little bit about, maybe individuals, executives, teams. How do people work with you?
Dr. K. 26:54
So generally, there's three ways I work with entrepreneurs, executives in their companies. So the entrepreneurs are anywhere from solopreneurs up to say, 10 employees or so. I love working with them in my entrepreneur emotional support program, which is a group program. And basically here we're talking about all the things that affect us as human beings, but also we're wearing the hats of business owner. So a lot of times it's the, yes, I'm a business owner here, but I'm also a spouse, a parent. I'm wearing all these other hats, and I'm trying to be perfect in all these realms. And it's, it's one's bleeding over into the other, and it becomes very challenging to live a life free of the burnout and the overwhelm and all of those things. And so what I love about that group is we learn from each other. It's not just me answering questions or teaching. It's being able to recognize, okay, you know, there's there's people that are experts in their field, in different areas, and sometimes it's even fun to talk about, okay, if we're talking about, let's say, the stress that arises from not getting proper leads in our business, to have somebody in our group that's really good with the branding aspect. And we can talk about, okay, where's the what are the obstacles that that get in in your clients ways when it's when it comes to thinking they can DIY something as vital as being able to attract the right people. We can't even see ourselves objectively through our own eyes, right? And so many people try to do that with their businesses as well. And so we can talk about even the intersection of emotional health and business in different ways. So that's that's one area. Level two is Emotional Health Mastery, where I work with executives, one on one. So these are slightly larger companies, usually at this point, the the the owner, CEO, is no longer working in the business as much, and they're working on the business, a lot of the things, you know, translate, certainly into leadership skills and things that they may not have developed in the past. But it's also, you know, it's understanding their own emotional health, but it's also understanding that of their team and how to handle some certain sensitive situations, things like that. The third level is the emotionally healthy company, where I work with the executive team and the whole company with group workshops. That's my favorite, because that's where we can really create cultures of where people can come to work and become better people. As a result of it, turnover becomes extremely low. They feel supported by their teammates. It's certainly not for every organization. I will say that it only works for the companies that the business owner wants to engage in becoming the best version of themselves. And they're willing to be, they're willing to put in the work too. And when that happens, though it's it's magic, because. It makes it safe for everybody else to, you know, to engage and become the best version of themselves.
Dina Simon 30:07
Did you find during COVID, I know a lot of my clients, and just kind of the larger, I guess my larger kind of lens was there were a lot of companies that were trying to figure out how to be super supportive during the pandemic, from the mental health aspect, the movement aspect, how do we have these conversations with our staff that are out now remote, where maybe we used to have them more in house, but then I feel like some of those companies that actually had a budget for wellness and programming now that we're in 25 and moving into, you know, almost halfway through this year, are kind of forgetting about it. I've seen people, you know, just kind of back off, unfortunately, because I do agree with you the value of it. But have you seen any shifts over the last couple of years coming out of the pandemic?
Dr. K. 30:54
It's interesting. I've found that the ones who invested heavily into that with a certain mentality. Because sometimes it's we, we make a choice in business because it's necessary. Other times we make a choice because we believe it's the right thing to do. And what I found is that the leaders who believe it's the right thing to do, they're thriving. I mean, they're to them. So to give you an idea, my first emotionally healthy company client, I met with them a couple of weeks ago with both the owners. Normally, I work with each of them individually. We did kind of a group session to talk vision, long term stuff like that, personal aspects too. But you know, they're they're in a situation right now that's a little tenuous financially based on macroeconomic situations and all that. You know, they're having to make some difficult choices. But one of the owners said, look, as far as I'm concerned, getting our employees. So one thing they do is they they buy them lunches every day, and they're hourly employees, and they are on the clock. So if you think about it, for somebody that's making, say, $20 an hour to get a free lunch and to be paid for that hour is a huge is huge, right? It adds up tremendously. So he said, that's something we've done from day one, and it's something that I believe in, and it's part of who we are that's not going away. I will not let it go away. It's part of what we do. And so the companies that I've certainly the ones that I work with in emotionally healthy company over the long run, but others as well that recognize that the mentality is this, I am in business to provide great opportunities for great people, and if I take care of them. They will take care of the clients. The clients feed the business, and the business feeds me. So their number one priority is creating a business that is, that is in existence to love on their team. And for them, I've I've certainly not noticed them pulled back. The ones that have pulled back are kind of the ones that are, in some cases, kind of checking the box, and certainly not the ones that I'm a good fit for, that's for sure,
John S. 33:13
You know. And as you say, the where you buy the lunches, or you have little things that you do for your your employees at that point. And you can do that as an entrepreneur. Sometimes you get into a big corporation, it becomes much harder to do. And as an entrepreneur, you're looking at or saying, okay, I have a fiduciary responsibility to these people, not only for me, but for their future, so that they can go what I'm not here any longer. How does this company survive?
Dr. K. 33:42
Yeah, that's vital. You know, that legacy component of it is you think about, what does it take to set up the culture of an organization so that even after we're no longer a part of it, that those values live on? And certainly, yes, it is. It is a lot easier. I think when you are a privately owned company, you don't have public shareholders, or maybe it's not a, you know, owned by private equity, there's, there's a lot less external factors, and you can operate like, okay, you know what? I'm I have a, I have a client right now, who's he's, well, three years one of the emotionally healthy company clients, and he owns a wealth management firm out in Houston, and he said, Look, I can, I can have a little bit better profit margin, and I can take that home, and that money can sit with me and do nothing, you know, or I can take a little bit of that profit margin and make sure that my team gets what they need to really grow as human beings and love the work that they do here, and love working here. And. And he's never had to replace an employee, right? He's never had to do it.
Dina Simon 35:04
Yeah, because they're bought in, and they're they feel that they're cared for. Somebody's investing in them. They're learning, they're growing. There's just so, yeah, there's so much there, and it's wonderful, because there are those good companies out there in and it just is, you know, trying to get other companies, like you said, not just be checking the boxes, but actually do the right things. Yeah,
Dr. K. 35:27
Well, and there's a, there's an ROI to that too. I mean, just there was a company that I met, I want to say, three years ago at this point, and they had just gone through, they've been in business for about 10 years, gone through a massive growth that previous 12 months, doubled the size of their company, so their staff doubled as well, and didn't, didn't end up, you know, becoming a client. But I kind of recognized that the way that they thought was a little bit different probably wouldn't have been a good fit anyway, but the the struggle that they went through in that growing process was so they ended up paying a recruiting firm about $60,000 to hire two people. They eventually two people there, but they eventually had hired 10 people through other sources as well. So they added on these 10 people, and unfortunately, because they hired certain people that probably weren't such a good fit, that ended up driving out two of their pre existing best employees, and then the people that they brought on that drove out the other two, then they left themselves. And like, the cost of replacing your best, like, where do you you know, it's huge versus you take care of the ones you have. You have. You give them opportunities to grow. It doesn't mean that they won't leave, but if they do leave, it's hopefully for something that inspires you, right? Like they want to start their own business, they want to do something, you know, and then now they you still have that connection to them, you know. Maybe they become a client or a vendor, whatever it is, right? There's, there's so many possibilities. But again, when you operate from a place of employees are an expense, it's just never gonna happen.
Dina Simon 37:07
I was actually just before we did this, about an hour ago, I was talking with somebody that I did some project work for a couple years ago. And she always called people that left her organization, her alumni, and she, you know, she would follow them. She was 5-10, years later, so proud of the things that they did. And so you're exactly the right like, hopefully, hopefully their time there is everything it needs to be, and then when they leave, it's for the right reasons, and you can celebrate that and watch people continue to grow. Yeah. So, life, leadership, legacy. So you've talked a little bit. We've talked about some corporate culture legacy, and business owner legacy, you are building an amazing legacy, and all the things that you're doing, all the people that you're touching. But what else comes to mind? As in, in kind of wrapping up as we talk about legacy. What does legacy mean to you?
Dr. K. 37:58
To me, legacy is intricately tied with purpose, life, purpose, right? And I think that goes beyond family. Family's certainly a part of it. But I think the deepest sense of purpose comes from making an impact that is meaningful to you, that even if it doesn't last beyond our lifetime, but to know that during the time that we are here on Earth, we made this difference that is living a life without regret. And it is, I think that's if you look at the four areas that I look at as far as for human needs, stability, there's a roof over our head, food in our bellies, money, really, and how we make that happen in modern life, belonging, whether that's our families, our friends, our companies, our communities. Number three is growth, the need to continue to grow and feel like we are better today than we were yesterday. But the fourth one is purpose, and so even for the the the executives I've worked with, who certainly are in a good place, stability wise, great sense of belonging. They're growing in all they're hungry for growth in all the different ways. But they don't have that North Star of the What's it for? Right? That? What is it for? That sense of purpose? Once you figure that out, that becomes a legacy, in my opinion, right? Because now, Legacy doesn't have to be something that exists after we're gone. We were living it day in and day out. We're recruiting other people who share that same vision, and we can make a difference that way. Because, you know, now, now, when you're making a difference in somebody's life today, everything that they do from here on out, you know, we have a, yeah, we have, we have a tiny part in their story. And so it's a beautiful thing.
Dina Simon 39:45
It's a beautiful thing. Oh my gosh.
John S. 39:47
And the other thing you find out in business, you don't always need to be liked, but you always need to be respected.
Dr. K. 39:55
Yeah, for sure, it's something that I think a lot of people get caught up on is they want to be liked, so oftentimes they will make choices that are actually destructive. Yes, and I think it's important to, I mean, even just think about feedback.
Dina Simon 40:11
Yes, feedback is kind.
Dr. K. 40:13
Feedback, yeah, but feedback can be.
Dina Simon 40:16
as long as it's given in the right yes.
Dr. K. 40:18
Yes, given in the right thing. Because if you've got the kind feedback that, okay, that feels good, or the, you know, the
Dina Simon 40:25
No real feedback is kind Yes, like, yeh.
Dr. K. 40:28
But real feedback is the one that is constructive, and not something that's like, Oh, that's such a great idea. You should totally do that, even though that idea has no legs and you're probably gonna waste money well.
Dina Simon 40:37
And so, dr, K, do you have any clients in Minnesota?
Dr. K. 40:40
I don't. I do have Michigan clients. I do not have any Minnesota clients.
Dina Simon 40:43
So in Minnesota, we have a sickness called Minnesota Nice. Okay? And it's actually not nice. It is actually a passive aggressive so, so we actually have a real issue here, because people cannot give like that really just that real, like nice, constructive feedback. Like people are so afraid to do it, so they so it's then the opposite. And so it's a, it's an interesting culture thing. Back here in Minnesota, when somebody was somebody that could fix that for the state, would be the very wealthy.
Dr. K. 41:17
That's Minnesota, nice. I've learned something new today. Yeah, it's, it's, I think for for a lot of us, right? We have this desire to be a good person, and being kind to other people or nice other people is what we what we view as the right thing to do. However, if being nice to them comes at the expense of, let's say, their well being, because they're guided down a path that it's not going to serve them, or because we physically can't say something that is constructive, that that might require a little bit of forthright truth telling, then it just comes out as actually being a very destructive thing.
Dina Simon 42:01
Yeah, yeah, absolutely anything else that you wanted our podcast listeners to hear or know about you?
Dr. K. 42:09
Yeah. I would just say this. Nobody in the history of the world has had your set of experiences, the tragedies, the triumphs nobody's had, your family, your life experiences, your set of skills. There's never been a single person that has walked this planet, that has lived your life. And yet we spend all this time trying to compare ourselves to other people or what we should be doing, and we use that word should so much in relation to ourselves. And I would just say this, where does that come from? You know, where does the should come from? There's nobody that has had your story. Therefore you are undefeated at being you. So find a path that is not a reflection of who you used to be. Craft a vision of the ideal version of yourself. Live into that vision, and that's the formula to stop chasing joy and begin living in wonder.
Dina Simon 43:12
I love it. Well said, well said, well, thank you so much for being on our podcast. It was just awesome to hear everything that you've gone through and now how you are taking that to have that amazing ripple effect with individuals and companies and everything you talked about. We're going to make sure that all of the show notes and stuff people know how to get in touch with you, how to get your book, how to work with you, but just really appreciate the conversation.
Dr. K. 43:36
Thank you for having me. I had a great time.
John S. 43:39
great talking with you, Dr K.
Dina Simon 43:42
I would like to thank Dr K for joining us today on the podcast, great conversation. We'll make sure you know how to get in touch with him in all of the show notes. Make sure you follow Him. Grab his book, and if you want to change your life and and stop chasing joy and begin living in wonder. Make sure you hire him to work with you, individually or within your company. As always, I'd like to thank my father in law, John Simon, for joining me as my co-host, and we are a proud member of the C suite radio, until we talk again.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai