We are so excited for you to get to know Jen Gilhoi!
She is known for being a TEDx Speaker, Nonalcoholic Industry Connector, Cofounder Zero Proof Collective, Cofounder Sauna and Sobriety. She is an advocate for and creator of healthy social experiences that decentralize alcohol.
Her journey spans two decades of alcohol misuse, nine years of an alcohol-free lifestyle, corporate roles, and entrepreneurial ventures. She shatters stigmas around choosing not to drink by inviting others to engage in self and societal inquiry to heal and be well. In her life and work, Jen is fascinated with the art of gathering and intentional conversations.
She’s an event experience strategist and founder of Sparktrack; a writer and conversationalist cracking open society’s role in addiction at jengilhoi.com; and cofounder of Zero Proof Collective, where business leaders and those interested in the non-alcoholic beverages industry thoughtfully connect, collaborate, and share resources to advance zero-proof options, experiences, and social spaces.
Jen is also cofounded Sauna and Sobriety in May 2023 to model safe, adult spaces that foster healing and belonging without substances.
Resources:
Zeroproof Website
Sauna and Sobriety Website
Jengilhoi Website
LinkedIn
InstaGram
TEDxTalk: Why We Should Rethink Drinking Culture
Transcript
John Simon Sr. 00:00
John, welcome to Simon Says, inspire a podcast about life, leadership and building legacies. I'm John Simon, SR
Dina Simon 00:16
and I'm Dina Simon. Our
John Simon Sr. 00:18
guest today is Jen gilhoy. Jen is an advocate for and creator of healthy social experiences that decentralized alcohol. Jen, welcome to our podcast.
Jen Gilhoi 00:31
I'm happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
John Simon Sr. 00:34
Wow, it's great to meet you. Why don't you take a minute or so and tell us a little bit about yourself?
Unknown Speaker 00:40
I will do that. Thank you. Where to start? Right? I'll start with just my community, really, in Minneapolis. Here, I have been in Minneapolis for nearly 25 plus years now, and in a marketing and communications role, and my journey is working in corporate for over a decade, and really coming to the realization around age 40 in that corporate space that I was burned out. I had two little ones working 50 plus hours a week, and the stress, compounded by alcohol misuse, which we'll clutch on, became too much, and I needed to take a personal life break. I needed to step away from my role at the time, which was events and communication, and really reassess my my life. And I did that, got sober in the process, so that will be 10 years of full sobriety coming up in a few months. Well, congratulations. Thank you, and it really is a story of starting to be more open about what that looks like, so that other people can access that sober lifestyle. Should they have a problem with drinking? They can identify that it is not the end of the world to, you know, have a sober lifestyle. In fact, it's pretty amazing. So that has channeled into a couple new ventures I have. One is zero proof collected, and we can talk about that. I've had that for the last two years, and then more recently, founded sauna and sobriety, just getting a lot of attention because of the connection to wellness and not drinking.
Dina Simon 02:14
And how do you say sauna?
Unknown Speaker 02:16
Oh, depends on where you live. So I live called Western Minnesota. Anytime you talk to anyone in the, you know, northern part of Minnesota, at sauna. So there's a variety of ways, but you should always say it authentically to how you know it is what I've landed on.
Dina Simon 02:34
Yeah, love that. Yeah. There you go. There you go. Awesome. So we first met almost 10 years ago, crazy. Yes, yeah. Or it could have been, actually, it was at least 10. It was maybe even longer than 11, yeah, well, yeah, I
Jen Gilhoi 02:48
bet, yeah, yes. Well, in corporate, yeah, yeah,
Dina Simon 02:51
exactly. And you were just, you were in corporate, and you were just either leaving or deciding to leave, was kind of, I think, around that time, and then we kind of lost touch. I think we've just, you know, kind of social media, LinkedIn, whatever. And then after the pandemic, when we started going out to events again, is really when I started seeing you, and then as a TEDx speaker. So super exciting to have a TEDx I had seen that, and you've been obviously in a lot of news and press with all these exciting ventures that we'll talk about. And so it was around the holidays when I saw you at one of the wired events, and was like, Jen, we got to get shot on our podcast. So thank you for being willing to join John. And I
Jen Gilhoi 03:33
absolutely yeah, it has been a journey, and I recall seeing you speak and feeling like standing up in front of a room and sharing like you did, felt nearly impossible at that time in my life, 12 some years ago, when I was in active addiction and very, very shy, didn't understand what was possible at that point. So you were an inspiration.
Dina Simon 03:56
Oh, you're super sweet. So life, leadership and building legacies is kind of what we're going to talk about. So you talked a little bit. Little bit about Minneapolis, about your you know, tell us about your children now, because ages. Where are they at?
Jen Gilhoi 04:08
Yeah. So I have two children, and they are, my daughter is going to be 21 in a couple months here, and she is a junior at the U of M, and my son is in high school. He's 18, graduating very soon here, which planning graduation party is top of the list, and he's looking at school, so he's very close to making a decision, and I will be, you know, empty nesting, but also with another layer to that, which is divorce, and that is something that can come with a lot of shame as well as alcohol misuse. But I have embraced it. I have an amazing friend and lawyer who has walked me through this in a very healthy way and for a lot of reasons. You know, that relationship needed to end, but stepping into that, being single, along with my kids being like, launched into the world. Has been probably eight or nine months of really intense transition in life, yeah,
Dina Simon 05:05
yeah, a lot of transition for sure. Yep.
Jen Gilhoi 05:08
And some things, you know, some things in career, I've had to put on a little bit of a back burner so that I could heal personally. And it's exciting we're talking today, because I feel like I'm really starting to get on the other side of that. I'm really close to just, you know, assessing the opportunities that are in front of me and then taking the next bold step, which I've learned over the last decade. You know, no one's going to do that for you. No one's going to give you permission. You just need to assert yourself and take that right.
John Simon Sr. 05:39
I'd like to know a little bit about, you know, when you decided you know to go with the sobriety and everything, how that affected your day to day lifestyle?
Jen Gilhoi 05:50
Yeah, I think it is. And, you know, like many in my shoes at that time, was devastating. I didn't know. I couldn't see how I would do life without alcohol, because one of the first things you often need to do is let your boss or let your co workers know, and that is a very scary thing to be, you know, thinking about potentially losing your job if you confide that you have this disease of addiction and you need help. Sometimes, you know, you go away. You see it in the movies. It's predicted. You know, it's like, you have to, like, go away to treatment. And obviously, there are more options than that, but at the time, I just couldn't envision how that would work in the environment that I was in. So I had to reassess my work life, I had to look at my friend group. I had to, you know, completely look at everything, and it was devastating. And I think it's a very scary and fearful thing, but what I ultimately recognized very immediately was how much courage that did take. And
John Simon Sr. 06:55
instead of people looking at it as a weakness, you have to look at it as a strength. Yeah, because you noticed it. You knew what was going on, and you did something about it. No one did it for you,
Jen Gilhoi 07:06
right? And I think one of the first things I heard, and I chose the route of AA, which was wonderful and available to me at the time, that they do focus on character defects, and I, I remember just thinking, you know, getting myself into that space and feeling so proud and so like I made it here and then basically assessing your character defects. So yeah, it took a lot of courage to stay in those spaces and keep engaging and, you know, a super supportive community that really helped me through my first year, which is also a milestone for many, up until about my third year, where then I kind of chose some different paths to creating sober community.
Dina Simon 07:47
Yeah, because you probably got that much stronger through that time and then recognized other changes that you needed to make. Yeah,
Jen Gilhoi 07:54
for sure, it's a lifelong skill. I thought, well, if I can do that, if I can, you know, reprogram my brain and my activities and my behavior to not need alcohol. What else is possible? I literally applied it to so many areas of my life, from working out my, you know, mental health, my all of those things. And you just keep layering that on, and it's, it's just a kind of a recipe for productivity, too, I think, yeah,
Dina Simon 08:20
and I'm glad that you were able to speak to your boss and your company, and it sounds like they were supportive with the HR hat that I have. I actually would just counseled a client today that has a situation going on within their workforce with somebody who has a known problem. And so it is, you know, it's very on both sides. It's a delicate situation on how do you approach somebody who we think has a problem within our organization, and out of love and respect and getting them well, but still protecting the company in case anything was to happen while they're at work? Right? That's
Unknown Speaker 08:56
a huge space. And I will say that that was not really the route for me, it was a discussion with HR, but it was the elephant in the room that was never acknowledged. It was more like, you know, productivity issues, and they had cited these things, which I knew to be true, but they were as a result of my alcohol misuse, but it was never called out. They were very supportive in allowing me to stay as long as I needed to to, you know, have the time to share with co workers, so I appreciated that, but it just called out again. I think today, 10 years later, it's a different story. But also, who in an organization is actually equipped to have those conversations? And oftentimes a person in HR, without a lived experience, or that piece of it may not have the capacity to have as much empathy. So it is a really interesting thing that I want my work to kind of eventually touch on, and I'm starting to get into some of those spaces nice.
John Simon Sr. 09:52
I'm sure, over the last 10 years, there's a lot of people that you've helped also,
Unknown Speaker 09:55
I hope so, and they keep me going. So like, I. I get messages in Facebook, and I just high school, a friend of mine reached out and said, I've been watching you for six years, and I finally am ready to make the change myself. And it's like those things you just you never know of, but more and more, those are starting to come back, and that is enough to keep me going and doing more that
John Simon Sr. 10:19
gives you the encouragement only to keep it for yourself, but to help the other people.
Unknown Speaker 10:23
Yeah, yes, absolutely. I have really this idea of serving others. I'd love to talk more about that, because, you know, when I started early sobriety 10 some years ago, I didn't really understand what that meant or how I could do that. So I had a career in marketing and communications. I had great clients. I enjoyed, you know, getting them their marketing materials, doing something in that space. But did it really like to what level did it impact someone's life? And although I didn't know what was ahead, I kept making choices and different, you know, being on a board, for example, the dissonance board, which is all about mental health through the arts and and shattering the stigmas around addiction, that was one early way that I said, I don't know what this is about, and that was six some years ago. So I can look back now and kind of credit these little moves to, you know, be in community and start to understand what it looks like to serve others. And once you start doing that, as you both know, it feels so good, and that's the purpose. But you can't necessarily just, you know, write it down and, you know, pick out your notepad and say, This is my goal. You it has to evolve, I think, to be really deep. And I didn't know that, you know, two years ago was when I first started seeing shades of what that looks like, nice. So at age 51 now, like, wow, that that took a while. I would say, well,
Dina Simon 11:51
we keep, we keep evolving. Yes,
John Simon Sr. 11:53
so you're, you're going through a divorce right now, I understand, and a name change is in the I think possibly, yes,
Unknown Speaker 12:03
oh, it's so heavy, I've been thinking about this. You know, the first time I thought about, you know, what that would mean to be divorced in terms of my identity, was a year ago in March, when I got the call from the TEDx global committee and they had said, we want to hold your talk for publication, because we want to put it out to the global community. And my first thought was, oh, no, not with my married name. Wow, yeah. And because it was like this, this elevation and this opportunity be like, really out in the world with the work I wanted to do. I'm very futuristic, but yet I it was still wanting to be promoted and presented to the world with a name that no longer served me. I reached out to the local TEDx United committee, whom I did my talk through, and I said, Is there any way that we can like she was like, Absolutely not. Oh my gosh. We had to jump through so many hoops to get the production. So at that point, I put feelers out to some friends about what does it mean, you know, to change your identity, to change your name. At this point in your life, I've built a ton of equity in my personal brand, jengillboy.com I have a website, my big umbrella for all the work that I do, but ultimately, I don't want to be tied to that anymore. And talking with men and women my communities about name changes, I really don't have any hesitations about selecting a brand new, creative name that I just am making up like I don't feel the need to go back to my maiden name. I don't necessarily want to keep the my mate and married name in some shape or form, I will for quite some time. But why be? Why be tied to that, and the whole idea that, you know all these women that in my late 20s, my friend groups getting married, a handful of them kept their name. And I was like, Wow. I just thought. I just was like, why would you do that? It sounds very confusing to have a family and have your kids have different last names, but I'm sort of out of that phase right now, so it's very freeing. And why not create something that has meaning?
Dina Simon 14:15
It's all you, yeah, yeah. Well,
John Simon Sr. 14:17
and you know, it was a big thing for a while to hyphenate your name. I listen to people did, and you don't see as much of that anymore. I don't think,
Unknown Speaker 14:27
right? It's like, how can we simplify? I'm like, you know, my first name, you know, I've used Jenny, Jennifer and Jen at various points in my life. And years ago, I just was like, I just like, Jen. And so a friend of mine was like, since I'm in the non alcoholic space so much, and the abbreviation for that is NA, she was like, why don't you just be na? Jenna, last name. So right? I My community has given me so much empowerment and support and ideas for what that. Might look like. So I, in the next probably three weeks, am making that decision, and it's going to be on paper and final as to whatever that may be. I love it. I
Dina Simon 15:11
love it. More More news to come. Yes, more news to come. Love that revealed. Yes,
Unknown Speaker 15:16
yeah. And
Dina Simon 15:18
so let's talk about zero proof. So you talked about a little bit in the beginning, but talk about what talk about what zero proof is. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 15:24
yeah. So a couple years ago, I met through Calen Faulkner, who is someone I'd known in different business circles for years. I connected with her in the Sada, and it was January of 2022, so almost two years ago, and she said, Jen, you really need to meet my mom. And I, we just laughed, you know, like, Okay, I'll meet your mom, you know. And we kept, you know, suggesting and and finally, Kate Faulkner, her mom, and I did meet in March of 2022, and realized a vision for what we wanted to do in the space. And she comes from hospitality background, excellent knowledge of non alcoholic product and entertaining large you know, she would host parties. And she just has this really great knowledge of what a social experience looks like. I came to the table saying, culture needs to change. It's great that I can have an NA beverage in my hand, and it should be, you know, low sugar and fancy drinkware, but for me, I really was honed in on the cultures and like our bars and restaurants and corporate spaces. So when we came together, we formed zero proof collective with the idea that there are a lot of barriers to getting non alcoholic products in the in our social spaces, plus a lot of barriers in just people accepting that this is a trend that is coming. And so we hosted bi monthly meetings with industry leaders in the Twin Cities area, just to get them together to say, how can we partner to do more? And what came from that was a lot of media attention. We like to be at a advocates and and disrupt to show what's possible when you give people an option to not drink. So that's that's zero proof collective, and May 5 will be our two year anniversary. Nice. I
Dina Simon 17:19
love it. So I was telling John, just when I saw you last was at another big kind of corporate networking event where a bunch of people were in the in the room and this fantastic space, and you were manning the zero proof collective bar area, and then the regular bar area. And it was awesome just to see how many people you know that you have a choice, and where people were going, I came to you and in my glass, you wouldn't have known if it was na or not. You know, it looks the same. And to have those options, especially in a corporate setting like that, when, when, and you talk about this, and your TEDx talk and everything, but there is that social stigma. There is that kind of peer pressure that you feel that you need to, you know, possibly drink, just to hang with those that are drinking, sure, and so if they don't know what's in your glass, it doesn't matter, right? Doesn't
Unknown Speaker 18:11
matter. It took me a long time to figure that out. But also, and that's why I think my talk and the timing was relevant, is, you know, coming out of covid, we had all these makers really focused on going inward and creating and being innovative. But I would say, you know, five years ago, when I started saying, Where are these options? All there was, you know, was like Red Bull, kombucha, you know, coffee, tea and soda, and there just wasn't anything. So the culmination of having, finally, excellence in the category. No one has any reason to say. Why there? Why you wouldn't offer that like that is that's in the past. So the future is, you know, providing these options and disclosing them on the menu, talking with them about in corporate culture. But also, if you own a bar or restaurant, making sure your servers and everyone understands the value of that.
John Simon Sr. 19:06
And sure it opens up another whole market for the people that produce alcoholic beverages to get into the non alcoholic also, yeah,
Unknown Speaker 19:14
for sure. And what's what's really interesting is they're makers that have just went strictly into creating non alcoholic beverages. But also what we're seeing is, for example, in California, there's a five generation family that has been wine sommeliers for 141 years, and just this last year, because of technology, they are able to, you know, go, have the wine, go through the process, and the alcoholize it, and the value of that to having some of these alcohol forward companies across America say that Na is a quality category and also start producing that is pretty amazing, because those are the relationships and the people that have access to all the. Distribution, right? So it's very interesting to see who's getting into the market right now, and is it for, you know, out of the good of their heart to offer an NA because it does take a ton of research and work to develop those products, because oftentimes the dalkalization happens after that original product's been created. So there's, yeah, a lot, just a lot of room to be innovative in the space, and the technology, quite frankly, has come a very long way.
Dina Simon 20:26
Yeah, so John and I were talking before, and he was chatting about, you know, the trend of dry January, and how that's really been a trend over, you know, and I don't know how long that's been a trend, but I'm here 11 years. Okay, wow.
John Simon Sr. 20:40
And when we talked about it, I said probably two or three years ago, they started talking about dry January,
Unknown Speaker 20:46
yeah, started in the UK. It started in the UK January, 11 years ago. And you're right, it was like a created out of a public health crisis. And, you know, people, it was really kind of happening in the UK, and didn't as much go beyond, didn't make it to the US I feel like, until five some years ago. I mean, I never, I never did dry January, because I had already been sober. But that is a definite path for people, not, you know, only to become sober for a lifetime, but just to explore what we call mindful drinking. So if you do a month of it, you have a pretty good assessment, and you probably have a good assessment on day one or two. If you're just like, oh, I can't live without it, you start to understand what it would take to take alcohol out of your life. You've had over the course of a month, 31 days, you have had a lot of experience that can point you to, is it? Is it problematic for you? What is your relationship with it, and how do you use it, right? And
John Simon Sr. 21:49
especially coming off of the holidays and Thanksgiving, Christmas, right? New Year's, and then all of a sudden you say, okay, the New Year's resolution that people generally keeps three or four weeks. This one here is a 30 day commitment, and I would be curious to find out how many people continue it after this 30 days, a lot
Unknown Speaker 22:09
more every year, and in this year, many women have said that they're just waiting like a lot of times they've maybe tried and done dry January every year. But the more that you have these stints and build what that looks like, the better chances you have of, like, understanding what it looks like and then making it stick. And just choosing doesn't have to be someone who I call I call sober necessary, which is just my definition of I really alcohol, and I don't mix. But for people who you know are along that spectrum and in the middle that just don't want to you they almost have a harder time, because it's like, well, I can, and I the consequences aren't all that devastating. So what is it that makes your life that much better that you decide to make that shift, which I find so inspiring, I'm always in awe. I'm like, Wow, that's amazing.
John Simon Sr. 23:00
Well, and I like how you refer to it as just a healthy culture. It's just a new way of looking at at things. And then you are much healthier when you don't have as much alcohol in your life,
Unknown Speaker 23:12
for sure. For sure. It impacts every area of health and life. And as I talk to specifically, more women in aging, it just like, even if they wanted to, they have, you know, an allergic reaction, or their body just doesn't tolerate it. At some point, we have built up so many toxins in our body that even if you wanted to, you're not going to feel great. And at some point that becomes very obvious, and you have to weigh like do you want to feel like that tomorrow? Or would you rather just not even have a glass of wine? It doesn't even provide any sort of benefit or relaxation anymore. Or people are just finding different ways to, you know, be in community and connection without having that, which is what the sauna and sobriety community is all about.
Dina Simon 23:55
Yeah, we used, so tell us more about that. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 23:59
So that was kind of a vision. That's probably five or six years ago, I started doing sauna and cold plunge, and I couldn't believe the correlation to sobriety that it had. So what being in hot and cold extremes does is, you know, allow you to recognize that it's okay to be uncomfortable, and you can be in this pause of this moment, and like, move past it. You can understand how breath impacts. You know your mindfulness, and you can make a choice to stay in the cold plunge for like, four minutes, and you couldn't do that in sobriety. Sobriety is about creating, like, an opening or a gap to make a different choice. And when I was in active addiction, there was no gap. It was like feeling reward. Feeling reward. Most people don't understand that there's it doesn't even feel like a choice to someone in addiction, and it didn't to me, I was like, I couldn't even create enough space to do that. So the sun and sobriety model really creates space to have more intimate conversation. Patients to figure out what it's like to be in the community without alcohol, and people just love it. And you also get, like, a 250% dopamine increase after getting out of a cold plunge. So super euphoric benefit. It's like this, and all the benefits and no hangover.
Dina Simon 25:16
Tell us about what you're doing. Do you have physical locations that you've created? Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 25:21
the cool thing, and this is I was quoted in the New York Times again with my married last name, whatever, Ms ilboi, because there are a lot of sauna builders and a lot of communities here that have the physical sauna that they've either built or created. And what our model does, so my co founder, Natalie Lang, and I, what we do is we have a four hour format, but we go to different sauna companies and different venues, and we host them with the idea that we're providing the experience and someone else is providing the physicality of the sauna in the space. So that's been really cool. And The New York Times correspondent that somehow found me was through a sauna builder, because they had interviewed a bunch of builders and, you know, community hosts and different things, but really latched on to this very specific, targeted thing for people in early sobriety, which there's just not, there's nothing, there's nothing that says, This is for you, newly sober person, Come to this space. It's safe. We've got you, yeah, yeah.
Dina Simon 26:23
Somebody recently told me, and it had nothing to do with sobriety, but they had told me that they went to this experience, like an experience like this. So you talked about four hours where you go to the hot and cold, and you can go back kind of through the journey again, and just all the health benefits of it, and just how she loved the experience, and was highly encouraging me to try it, so we'll see. I get goosebumps even thinking about it and talking through it, but, but it just, I love that you're creating this community those experiences, and what, what do you think is next? Because you're always thinking of the next thing. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 27:00
well, interesting that I you know, when I did aa for three years, and so that was six some years ago where I said, You know what, I think I'm ready to move on from that. I didn't really know where my path would take me. But interestingly enough, I have circled back to the recovery community locally, and that is because one individual who I had coffee with a year ago sought me out to help with his lion Hills brownstone. So it's sober women's living. And there are many women who at a certain age have resources, and they end up staying in addiction for a very long time. They are enabled because of their resources. So this is a model that really kind of, you know, targets that that group of women, mid 50s or so, who have somehow high functioning alcohol, like their entire lives at some point, will hit some sort of rock bottom, so being able to talk about creating a sober safe space, but then also, who in the community is empowered to do, almost like some of the intervention work that's needed, that's been something that many people have shied away from, is to call out someone else on their drinking habits. And because no one did that in my life for two decades, I would drink and get way too drunk and be hungover and oh, the next day, isn't that funny? I can't believe and I would have no memory of it. And that is not funny. And to think that, you know, there's just not many people that are able to have that skill and understand how powerful that can be. You know, that's something that I'm I've really drawn back into. So I've been doing that work for last nine months and then recently have been brought into more of the research around addiction. And my work, I would say, is more on the environmental side. So there's, I think, three pillars of work, there's treatment and work on yourself, there's treatment or work in community, like peer groups, like AA, and then there's this environment, which for me, totally threw me into what we call returns to use several times, and that's the area that I'm focused on. So I'm getting back into that through the U of M, through an amazing opportunity that just came my way yesterday to be part of a study on, you know, addiction, and bridging that gap between social integration for people that come out of a 90 day treatment program and are just dropped back into their life, it's like that's not going to work. So we need to have more ways to integrate back in for family to also come along for that journey. In order to make it stick, the relapse rates are crazy high for first time, 40 to 60% you almost anticipate it, right?
Dina Simon 29:42
Yeah, and just again, why we even wanted you on the podcast is because of the conversation, right? It's like anything. We've got to just keep talking about it. We have to raise awareness. I love what you said is, yeah, nobody was courageous enough in your life to say, Hey, you don't even remember what happened last night. Don't think that's problem. But as you said, it wasn't even just the courage, just the training, like they don't know what to say or how to do it, and,
Unknown Speaker 30:07
yeah, and empathy and also understand that. I mean, that's, there's so much work that can be done in that space. And those are the calls that I'm getting now. My sister, I think, needs help. What do I do? So I am literally being tested very frequently, and I, you know, find the language to say, here's, you know, here's a step getting them, you know, they're the number in that person's phone of someone they can call. Like, it's small things, right? But like to have that planted, that seed with someone, and when the right time is hit, when you are a rock bottom enough you know what action to take. So I think it's it's really important work, and to let people know that it does matter, it can be done. It's a hard conversation, right, which we don't always like. It makes us uncomfortable, but it can be done in such a loving way and supported way, that you are also drawing your own boundaries, and ultimately, it helps an entire family and generations like heal from trauma. That's all it is. It's all, you know, connected to childhood trauma. So a lot of therapy goes hand in hand with addiction and recovery. Absolutely,
Dina Simon 31:14
absolutely.
John Simon Sr. 31:15
When you talk a minute or so ago about, you know, maybe not remembering, you know, the night before, there were many times that I would get up and go to work the next day and say, How did I make it home last night? Did I stop at all those red lights? Did I, you know, did I pay attention to the environment around me? And you really didn't, and and, yes, thank God, and survived and never hurt anybody. But thank god. Oh yeah, because, you know, in the 70s and 80s, that was a big thing, yeah, and no seat belts. And exactly yeah, no airbags, no seat belts. Not about it. That type. That's it struck a nerve with me just thinking about it. Because every once while I think about that,
Dina Simon 31:59
yeah, yeah. Because John was saying, you know, they, he was in business at the time where, you know, it was liquid lunches and, and, yes, right? And that budge, yep. And then John, you said, too, you know, at the end of the day, it wasn't uncommon, you'd walk into somebody's office and there'd be a bottle, and you might have a whiskey, talk about your how you wrapped up your day and go home and, yeah,
Unknown Speaker 32:22
yeah, that culture. And, you know, we do, it's interesting in corporate to see that there's a lot of companies that place a high value on either gifting alcohol or having, like, Best Places to Work awards because, you know, a company has a break room with a keg available all day. I'm like, Oh my gosh. And I've been calling that out for at least a decade, and that that is starting to change. But, yeah, I mean, I and I think John, your point, it speaks to how I felt about the disease of addiction, which was, like, it's just me. I'm just like, you know, if anything bad happens, it's just me and my life. And it's like eye opening to look at how like it affected my children, how it affected my husband at the time, like it's not a like, it just doesn't it's not just one person. And the hurt and the harm that you cause everyone around you is is huge. So healing from that and understanding that it's the impact is really great when you make those
Dina Simon 33:20
type of choices. Well, I'm just so proud of the journey that you put yourself through. And, I mean, think of this like the decade of work that you've put in and everything that you have in front of you, and the TEDx talk, The New York Times, it doesn't matter what your last name is, or will it be, because you're just gonna continue. I mean, I think there's just this big ripple effect, right, like, of what you're doing, and it's just gonna keep growing.
Unknown Speaker 33:45
Yeah, it absolutely feels that way. And it's, it's one of the mantras in a is, just do, do the next right thing that is immediately in front of you, which has given me a lot of peace, in terms of, like, you can feel really overwhelmed as an entrepreneur is, you know, in any in any space, you can feel overwhelmed. So it's just like, just, you know, whatever that next straight thing is, and it could be in the next two seconds, right? So good to live by some of those mantras that you know were really took hold, like, a decade or so ago, right?
Dina Simon 34:17
So knowing you were to be on the podcast, was there anything else that you wanted our listeners to hear? Well,
Unknown Speaker 34:23
I just, I love the idea of legacy. I mean, I never had really considered that. I always thought in my 20s I would have a career path and I maybe just go up some sort of corporate ladder. And have you know, legacy is so cool to think about, and what I see it starting to be reflected back to me in is my children, like, there, you know, Calvin, my son, as he's looking at colleges, is thinking about what, what does that campus look like in terms of its value that it places on alcohol? And, you know, it's rampant in college campuses around the country. So starting to hear them like, use some of the language I've used. Some better choices. I mean, Gen Z got it figured out in many ways. I also have a lot of challenges in mental health, but that, to me, feels like legacy coming a little full circle, like the work is really going to hopefully impact my family and friends and community. Yeah,
Dina Simon 35:17
and think about your children and their friends and just the awareness of what you have gone through and your journey of what you're doing today, the conversation a safe place to have these conversations, because it is scary when you send your kids off to college, and regardless of college campus, like some people, you know, if it's a party school or not a party school, they can still find something to get into trouble with, right? For sure. Yeah,
John Simon Sr. 35:43
well, and it sounds like at 18 years old, he not only listens, but he understands, and hopefully he'll respond,
Unknown Speaker 35:50
yeah, yep. And hopefully they'll go on to make, you know, change in their friend group and those decisions, and I've already seen it happen. It's, it's a really beautiful thing and and to know that this generation understands like alcohol is ethanol. It's like the tobacco right of decades ago, when, you know, they changed the labels and the advertising, and currently alcohol is still being glamorized. So for them to understand that, at least they understand what's being marketed to them, and it absolutely all eat as promised, yeah,
Dina Simon 36:22
yeah. We talked. We've talked a few times on the podcast about, you know, one things, even through the pandemic, the two things that sold were lipstick and alcohol. Because, you know, yeah, yeah. And all of the sports and entertainment people that have their tequila companies or their vodka companies, there's, all of that too. So as you know so much from your marketing background,
John Simon Sr. 36:44
yeah, for sure. And then when, when you take a look at old maybe magazines and articles that came out, and they would have the package Chesterfields, and they would be interviewing a doctor, and most doctors prefer Chesterfield right? That was a big thing in the old, you know, the old Life magazines. And look magazines that, you know they they would have testimonials from from doctors, about the the, you know, how good it was to smoke,
Unknown Speaker 37:13
thank goodness, right? Well, and you know, there's a little bit of that in the alcohol industry, right? Like the French drink red wine, and they're super healthy, and it's good for you. And then you tell that to Americans, and we go, oh, well, five ounce glass, and then we turn it into a full bottle. Oh, well, absolutely
Dina Simon 37:28
right, right, yes, yeah,
Unknown Speaker 37:31
careful in the
Dina Simon 37:32
US, our culture. Oh, Jen, it's been such a joy to have you. I can't believe we've kept you on so long. Oh, we can
Unknown Speaker 37:40
continue. And, no,
Dina Simon 37:42
it's kind of great.
Unknown Speaker 37:43
I love that the two of you are doing this together. Dina spilled me in on a lot of that why and that backstory. I just think that's an amazing way to stay connected and keep learning together. It's very cool,
John Simon Sr. 37:54
and it is interesting because I was a couple of weeks ago, I was with family back in Pittsburgh and and they're all listening to the podcast and everything, and they're learning things about my life and Dina's life and our grandchildren and children, and it's really been an eye opening experience
Unknown Speaker 38:10
that's so cool. I love it. Continue on.
Dina Simon 38:14
Yes, we will continue on. And we'd love as you continue to evolve and all this fun stuff you're doing, we'd love to have you back on another time, just so we can get updated on new things that you're doing. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 38:24
I'd love that. Well, especially
John Simon Sr. 38:25
after the name change,
Unknown Speaker 38:27
yeah, we're sure it'll be a big reveal. Yes, awesome. Well,
Dina Simon 38:32
thank you, Jen for being on and continued success in everything that you're doing.
Unknown Speaker 38:36
Thank you so much.
Dina Simon 38:39
I would like to thank Jen gilhoy for joining us on the podcast. We had so much fun in this conversation. She's got so much going on, so proud of the work that she's doing. She's the owner of Spark track, which is her marketing company that we didn't even spend that much time talking about, co founder of sauna and sobriety and a co founder of zero proof collective and a TEDx speaker, as we talked about, featured in a lot of things recently. I will put links in her bio on the show notes and just thank you, Jen, and we'll be excited to hear you do your reveal of your new last name, and just all the amazing things that you're doing out the world. And know that people will continue to rally around you and keep all of this momentum moving forward. As always, I'd like to thank my father in law, John Simon, for being my co host and until we talk again. You.
John, welcome to Simon Says, inspire a podcast about life, leadership and building legacies. I'm John Simon, SR
Dina Simon 00:16
and I'm Dina Simon. Our
John Simon Sr. 00:18
guest today is Jen gilhoy. Jen is an advocate for and creator of healthy social experiences that decentralized alcohol. Jen, welcome to our podcast.
Jen Gilhoi 00:31
I'm happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
John Simon Sr. 00:34
Wow, it's great to meet you. Why don't you take a minute or so and tell us a little bit about yourself?
Unknown Speaker 00:40
I will do that. Thank you. Where to start? Right? I'll start with just my community, really, in Minneapolis. Here, I have been in Minneapolis for nearly 25 plus years now, and in a marketing and communications role, and my journey is working in corporate for over a decade, and really coming to the realization around age 40 in that corporate space that I was burned out. I had two little ones working 50 plus hours a week, and the stress, compounded by alcohol misuse, which we'll clutch on, became too much, and I needed to take a personal life break. I needed to step away from my role at the time, which was events and communication, and really reassess my my life. And I did that, got sober in the process, so that will be 10 years of full sobriety coming up in a few months. Well, congratulations. Thank you, and it really is a story of starting to be more open about what that looks like, so that other people can access that sober lifestyle. Should they have a problem with drinking? They can identify that it is not the end of the world to, you know, have a sober lifestyle. In fact, it's pretty amazing. So that has channeled into a couple new ventures I have. One is zero proof collected, and we can talk about that. I've had that for the last two years, and then more recently, founded sauna and sobriety, just getting a lot of attention because of the connection to wellness and not drinking.
Dina Simon 02:14
And how do you say sauna?
Unknown Speaker 02:16
Oh, depends on where you live. So I live called Western Minnesota. Anytime you talk to anyone in the, you know, northern part of Minnesota, at sauna. So there's a variety of ways, but you should always say it authentically to how you know it is what I've landed on.
Dina Simon 02:34
Yeah, love that. Yeah. There you go. There you go. Awesome. So we first met almost 10 years ago, crazy. Yes, yeah. Or it could have been, actually, it was at least 10. It was maybe even longer than 11, yeah, well, yeah, I
Jen Gilhoi 02:48
bet, yeah, yes. Well, in corporate, yeah, yeah,
Dina Simon 02:51
exactly. And you were just, you were in corporate, and you were just either leaving or deciding to leave, was kind of, I think, around that time, and then we kind of lost touch. I think we've just, you know, kind of social media, LinkedIn, whatever. And then after the pandemic, when we started going out to events again, is really when I started seeing you, and then as a TEDx speaker. So super exciting to have a TEDx I had seen that, and you've been obviously in a lot of news and press with all these exciting ventures that we'll talk about. And so it was around the holidays when I saw you at one of the wired events, and was like, Jen, we got to get shot on our podcast. So thank you for being willing to join John. And I
Jen Gilhoi 03:33
absolutely yeah, it has been a journey, and I recall seeing you speak and feeling like standing up in front of a room and sharing like you did, felt nearly impossible at that time in my life, 12 some years ago, when I was in active addiction and very, very shy, didn't understand what was possible at that point. So you were an inspiration.
Dina Simon 03:56
Oh, you're super sweet. So life, leadership and building legacies is kind of what we're going to talk about. So you talked a little bit. Little bit about Minneapolis, about your you know, tell us about your children now, because ages. Where are they at?
Jen Gilhoi 04:08
Yeah. So I have two children, and they are, my daughter is going to be 21 in a couple months here, and she is a junior at the U of M, and my son is in high school. He's 18, graduating very soon here, which planning graduation party is top of the list, and he's looking at school, so he's very close to making a decision, and I will be, you know, empty nesting, but also with another layer to that, which is divorce, and that is something that can come with a lot of shame as well as alcohol misuse. But I have embraced it. I have an amazing friend and lawyer who has walked me through this in a very healthy way and for a lot of reasons. You know, that relationship needed to end, but stepping into that, being single, along with my kids being like, launched into the world. Has been probably eight or nine months of really intense transition in life, yeah,
Dina Simon 05:05
yeah, a lot of transition for sure. Yep.
Jen Gilhoi 05:08
And some things, you know, some things in career, I've had to put on a little bit of a back burner so that I could heal personally. And it's exciting we're talking today, because I feel like I'm really starting to get on the other side of that. I'm really close to just, you know, assessing the opportunities that are in front of me and then taking the next bold step, which I've learned over the last decade. You know, no one's going to do that for you. No one's going to give you permission. You just need to assert yourself and take that right.
John Simon Sr. 05:39
I'd like to know a little bit about, you know, when you decided you know to go with the sobriety and everything, how that affected your day to day lifestyle?
Jen Gilhoi 05:50
Yeah, I think it is. And, you know, like many in my shoes at that time, was devastating. I didn't know. I couldn't see how I would do life without alcohol, because one of the first things you often need to do is let your boss or let your co workers know, and that is a very scary thing to be, you know, thinking about potentially losing your job if you confide that you have this disease of addiction and you need help. Sometimes, you know, you go away. You see it in the movies. It's predicted. You know, it's like, you have to, like, go away to treatment. And obviously, there are more options than that, but at the time, I just couldn't envision how that would work in the environment that I was in. So I had to reassess my work life, I had to look at my friend group. I had to, you know, completely look at everything, and it was devastating. And I think it's a very scary and fearful thing, but what I ultimately recognized very immediately was how much courage that did take. And
John Simon Sr. 06:55
instead of people looking at it as a weakness, you have to look at it as a strength. Yeah, because you noticed it. You knew what was going on, and you did something about it. No one did it for you,
Jen Gilhoi 07:06
right? And I think one of the first things I heard, and I chose the route of AA, which was wonderful and available to me at the time, that they do focus on character defects, and I, I remember just thinking, you know, getting myself into that space and feeling so proud and so like I made it here and then basically assessing your character defects. So yeah, it took a lot of courage to stay in those spaces and keep engaging and, you know, a super supportive community that really helped me through my first year, which is also a milestone for many, up until about my third year, where then I kind of chose some different paths to creating sober community.
Dina Simon 07:47
Yeah, because you probably got that much stronger through that time and then recognized other changes that you needed to make. Yeah,
Jen Gilhoi 07:54
for sure, it's a lifelong skill. I thought, well, if I can do that, if I can, you know, reprogram my brain and my activities and my behavior to not need alcohol. What else is possible? I literally applied it to so many areas of my life, from working out my, you know, mental health, my all of those things. And you just keep layering that on, and it's, it's just a kind of a recipe for productivity, too, I think, yeah,
Dina Simon 08:20
and I'm glad that you were able to speak to your boss and your company, and it sounds like they were supportive with the HR hat that I have. I actually would just counseled a client today that has a situation going on within their workforce with somebody who has a known problem. And so it is, you know, it's very on both sides. It's a delicate situation on how do you approach somebody who we think has a problem within our organization, and out of love and respect and getting them well, but still protecting the company in case anything was to happen while they're at work? Right? That's
Unknown Speaker 08:56
a huge space. And I will say that that was not really the route for me, it was a discussion with HR, but it was the elephant in the room that was never acknowledged. It was more like, you know, productivity issues, and they had cited these things, which I knew to be true, but they were as a result of my alcohol misuse, but it was never called out. They were very supportive in allowing me to stay as long as I needed to to, you know, have the time to share with co workers, so I appreciated that, but it just called out again. I think today, 10 years later, it's a different story. But also, who in an organization is actually equipped to have those conversations? And oftentimes a person in HR, without a lived experience, or that piece of it may not have the capacity to have as much empathy. So it is a really interesting thing that I want my work to kind of eventually touch on, and I'm starting to get into some of those spaces nice.
John Simon Sr. 09:52
I'm sure, over the last 10 years, there's a lot of people that you've helped also,
Unknown Speaker 09:55
I hope so, and they keep me going. So like, I. I get messages in Facebook, and I just high school, a friend of mine reached out and said, I've been watching you for six years, and I finally am ready to make the change myself. And it's like those things you just you never know of, but more and more, those are starting to come back, and that is enough to keep me going and doing more that
John Simon Sr. 10:19
gives you the encouragement only to keep it for yourself, but to help the other people.
Unknown Speaker 10:23
Yeah, yes, absolutely. I have really this idea of serving others. I'd love to talk more about that, because, you know, when I started early sobriety 10 some years ago, I didn't really understand what that meant or how I could do that. So I had a career in marketing and communications. I had great clients. I enjoyed, you know, getting them their marketing materials, doing something in that space. But did it really like to what level did it impact someone's life? And although I didn't know what was ahead, I kept making choices and different, you know, being on a board, for example, the dissonance board, which is all about mental health through the arts and and shattering the stigmas around addiction, that was one early way that I said, I don't know what this is about, and that was six some years ago. So I can look back now and kind of credit these little moves to, you know, be in community and start to understand what it looks like to serve others. And once you start doing that, as you both know, it feels so good, and that's the purpose. But you can't necessarily just, you know, write it down and, you know, pick out your notepad and say, This is my goal. You it has to evolve, I think, to be really deep. And I didn't know that, you know, two years ago was when I first started seeing shades of what that looks like, nice. So at age 51 now, like, wow, that that took a while. I would say, well,
Dina Simon 11:51
we keep, we keep evolving. Yes,
John Simon Sr. 11:53
so you're, you're going through a divorce right now, I understand, and a name change is in the I think possibly, yes,
Unknown Speaker 12:03
oh, it's so heavy, I've been thinking about this. You know, the first time I thought about, you know, what that would mean to be divorced in terms of my identity, was a year ago in March, when I got the call from the TEDx global committee and they had said, we want to hold your talk for publication, because we want to put it out to the global community. And my first thought was, oh, no, not with my married name. Wow, yeah. And because it was like this, this elevation and this opportunity be like, really out in the world with the work I wanted to do. I'm very futuristic, but yet I it was still wanting to be promoted and presented to the world with a name that no longer served me. I reached out to the local TEDx United committee, whom I did my talk through, and I said, Is there any way that we can like she was like, Absolutely not. Oh my gosh. We had to jump through so many hoops to get the production. So at that point, I put feelers out to some friends about what does it mean, you know, to change your identity, to change your name. At this point in your life, I've built a ton of equity in my personal brand, jengillboy.com I have a website, my big umbrella for all the work that I do, but ultimately, I don't want to be tied to that anymore. And talking with men and women my communities about name changes, I really don't have any hesitations about selecting a brand new, creative name that I just am making up like I don't feel the need to go back to my maiden name. I don't necessarily want to keep the my mate and married name in some shape or form, I will for quite some time. But why be? Why be tied to that, and the whole idea that, you know all these women that in my late 20s, my friend groups getting married, a handful of them kept their name. And I was like, Wow. I just thought. I just was like, why would you do that? It sounds very confusing to have a family and have your kids have different last names, but I'm sort of out of that phase right now, so it's very freeing. And why not create something that has meaning?
Dina Simon 14:15
It's all you, yeah, yeah. Well,
John Simon Sr. 14:17
and you know, it was a big thing for a while to hyphenate your name. I listen to people did, and you don't see as much of that anymore. I don't think,
Unknown Speaker 14:27
right? It's like, how can we simplify? I'm like, you know, my first name, you know, I've used Jenny, Jennifer and Jen at various points in my life. And years ago, I just was like, I just like, Jen. And so a friend of mine was like, since I'm in the non alcoholic space so much, and the abbreviation for that is NA, she was like, why don't you just be na? Jenna, last name. So right? I My community has given me so much empowerment and support and ideas for what that. Might look like. So I, in the next probably three weeks, am making that decision, and it's going to be on paper and final as to whatever that may be. I love it. I
Dina Simon 15:11
love it. More More news to come. Yes, more news to come. Love that revealed. Yes,
Unknown Speaker 15:16
yeah. And
Dina Simon 15:18
so let's talk about zero proof. So you talked about a little bit in the beginning, but talk about what talk about what zero proof is. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 15:24
yeah. So a couple years ago, I met through Calen Faulkner, who is someone I'd known in different business circles for years. I connected with her in the Sada, and it was January of 2022, so almost two years ago, and she said, Jen, you really need to meet my mom. And I, we just laughed, you know, like, Okay, I'll meet your mom, you know. And we kept, you know, suggesting and and finally, Kate Faulkner, her mom, and I did meet in March of 2022, and realized a vision for what we wanted to do in the space. And she comes from hospitality background, excellent knowledge of non alcoholic product and entertaining large you know, she would host parties. And she just has this really great knowledge of what a social experience looks like. I came to the table saying, culture needs to change. It's great that I can have an NA beverage in my hand, and it should be, you know, low sugar and fancy drinkware, but for me, I really was honed in on the cultures and like our bars and restaurants and corporate spaces. So when we came together, we formed zero proof collective with the idea that there are a lot of barriers to getting non alcoholic products in the in our social spaces, plus a lot of barriers in just people accepting that this is a trend that is coming. And so we hosted bi monthly meetings with industry leaders in the Twin Cities area, just to get them together to say, how can we partner to do more? And what came from that was a lot of media attention. We like to be at a advocates and and disrupt to show what's possible when you give people an option to not drink. So that's that's zero proof collective, and May 5 will be our two year anniversary. Nice. I
Dina Simon 17:19
love it. So I was telling John, just when I saw you last was at another big kind of corporate networking event where a bunch of people were in the in the room and this fantastic space, and you were manning the zero proof collective bar area, and then the regular bar area. And it was awesome just to see how many people you know that you have a choice, and where people were going, I came to you and in my glass, you wouldn't have known if it was na or not. You know, it looks the same. And to have those options, especially in a corporate setting like that, when, when, and you talk about this, and your TEDx talk and everything, but there is that social stigma. There is that kind of peer pressure that you feel that you need to, you know, possibly drink, just to hang with those that are drinking, sure, and so if they don't know what's in your glass, it doesn't matter, right? Doesn't
Unknown Speaker 18:11
matter. It took me a long time to figure that out. But also, and that's why I think my talk and the timing was relevant, is, you know, coming out of covid, we had all these makers really focused on going inward and creating and being innovative. But I would say, you know, five years ago, when I started saying, Where are these options? All there was, you know, was like Red Bull, kombucha, you know, coffee, tea and soda, and there just wasn't anything. So the culmination of having, finally, excellence in the category. No one has any reason to say. Why there? Why you wouldn't offer that like that is that's in the past. So the future is, you know, providing these options and disclosing them on the menu, talking with them about in corporate culture. But also, if you own a bar or restaurant, making sure your servers and everyone understands the value of that.
John Simon Sr. 19:06
And sure it opens up another whole market for the people that produce alcoholic beverages to get into the non alcoholic also, yeah,
Unknown Speaker 19:14
for sure. And what's what's really interesting is they're makers that have just went strictly into creating non alcoholic beverages. But also what we're seeing is, for example, in California, there's a five generation family that has been wine sommeliers for 141 years, and just this last year, because of technology, they are able to, you know, go, have the wine, go through the process, and the alcoholize it, and the value of that to having some of these alcohol forward companies across America say that Na is a quality category and also start producing that is pretty amazing, because those are the relationships and the people that have access to all the. Distribution, right? So it's very interesting to see who's getting into the market right now, and is it for, you know, out of the good of their heart to offer an NA because it does take a ton of research and work to develop those products, because oftentimes the dalkalization happens after that original product's been created. So there's, yeah, a lot, just a lot of room to be innovative in the space, and the technology, quite frankly, has come a very long way.
Dina Simon 20:26
Yeah, so John and I were talking before, and he was chatting about, you know, the trend of dry January, and how that's really been a trend over, you know, and I don't know how long that's been a trend, but I'm here 11 years. Okay, wow.
John Simon Sr. 20:40
And when we talked about it, I said probably two or three years ago, they started talking about dry January,
Unknown Speaker 20:46
yeah, started in the UK. It started in the UK January, 11 years ago. And you're right, it was like a created out of a public health crisis. And, you know, people, it was really kind of happening in the UK, and didn't as much go beyond, didn't make it to the US I feel like, until five some years ago. I mean, I never, I never did dry January, because I had already been sober. But that is a definite path for people, not, you know, only to become sober for a lifetime, but just to explore what we call mindful drinking. So if you do a month of it, you have a pretty good assessment, and you probably have a good assessment on day one or two. If you're just like, oh, I can't live without it, you start to understand what it would take to take alcohol out of your life. You've had over the course of a month, 31 days, you have had a lot of experience that can point you to, is it? Is it problematic for you? What is your relationship with it, and how do you use it, right? And
John Simon Sr. 21:49
especially coming off of the holidays and Thanksgiving, Christmas, right? New Year's, and then all of a sudden you say, okay, the New Year's resolution that people generally keeps three or four weeks. This one here is a 30 day commitment, and I would be curious to find out how many people continue it after this 30 days, a lot
Unknown Speaker 22:09
more every year, and in this year, many women have said that they're just waiting like a lot of times they've maybe tried and done dry January every year. But the more that you have these stints and build what that looks like, the better chances you have of, like, understanding what it looks like and then making it stick. And just choosing doesn't have to be someone who I call I call sober necessary, which is just my definition of I really alcohol, and I don't mix. But for people who you know are along that spectrum and in the middle that just don't want to you they almost have a harder time, because it's like, well, I can, and I the consequences aren't all that devastating. So what is it that makes your life that much better that you decide to make that shift, which I find so inspiring, I'm always in awe. I'm like, Wow, that's amazing.
John Simon Sr. 23:00
Well, and I like how you refer to it as just a healthy culture. It's just a new way of looking at at things. And then you are much healthier when you don't have as much alcohol in your life,
Unknown Speaker 23:12
for sure. For sure. It impacts every area of health and life. And as I talk to specifically, more women in aging, it just like, even if they wanted to, they have, you know, an allergic reaction, or their body just doesn't tolerate it. At some point, we have built up so many toxins in our body that even if you wanted to, you're not going to feel great. And at some point that becomes very obvious, and you have to weigh like do you want to feel like that tomorrow? Or would you rather just not even have a glass of wine? It doesn't even provide any sort of benefit or relaxation anymore. Or people are just finding different ways to, you know, be in community and connection without having that, which is what the sauna and sobriety community is all about.
Dina Simon 23:55
Yeah, we used, so tell us more about that. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 23:59
So that was kind of a vision. That's probably five or six years ago, I started doing sauna and cold plunge, and I couldn't believe the correlation to sobriety that it had. So what being in hot and cold extremes does is, you know, allow you to recognize that it's okay to be uncomfortable, and you can be in this pause of this moment, and like, move past it. You can understand how breath impacts. You know your mindfulness, and you can make a choice to stay in the cold plunge for like, four minutes, and you couldn't do that in sobriety. Sobriety is about creating, like, an opening or a gap to make a different choice. And when I was in active addiction, there was no gap. It was like feeling reward. Feeling reward. Most people don't understand that there's it doesn't even feel like a choice to someone in addiction, and it didn't to me, I was like, I couldn't even create enough space to do that. So the sun and sobriety model really creates space to have more intimate conversation. Patients to figure out what it's like to be in the community without alcohol, and people just love it. And you also get, like, a 250% dopamine increase after getting out of a cold plunge. So super euphoric benefit. It's like this, and all the benefits and no hangover.
Dina Simon 25:16
Tell us about what you're doing. Do you have physical locations that you've created? Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 25:21
the cool thing, and this is I was quoted in the New York Times again with my married last name, whatever, Ms ilboi, because there are a lot of sauna builders and a lot of communities here that have the physical sauna that they've either built or created. And what our model does, so my co founder, Natalie Lang, and I, what we do is we have a four hour format, but we go to different sauna companies and different venues, and we host them with the idea that we're providing the experience and someone else is providing the physicality of the sauna in the space. So that's been really cool. And The New York Times correspondent that somehow found me was through a sauna builder, because they had interviewed a bunch of builders and, you know, community hosts and different things, but really latched on to this very specific, targeted thing for people in early sobriety, which there's just not, there's nothing, there's nothing that says, This is for you, newly sober person, Come to this space. It's safe. We've got you, yeah, yeah.
Dina Simon 26:23
Somebody recently told me, and it had nothing to do with sobriety, but they had told me that they went to this experience, like an experience like this. So you talked about four hours where you go to the hot and cold, and you can go back kind of through the journey again, and just all the health benefits of it, and just how she loved the experience, and was highly encouraging me to try it, so we'll see. I get goosebumps even thinking about it and talking through it, but, but it just, I love that you're creating this community those experiences, and what, what do you think is next? Because you're always thinking of the next thing. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 27:00
well, interesting that I you know, when I did aa for three years, and so that was six some years ago where I said, You know what, I think I'm ready to move on from that. I didn't really know where my path would take me. But interestingly enough, I have circled back to the recovery community locally, and that is because one individual who I had coffee with a year ago sought me out to help with his lion Hills brownstone. So it's sober women's living. And there are many women who at a certain age have resources, and they end up staying in addiction for a very long time. They are enabled because of their resources. So this is a model that really kind of, you know, targets that that group of women, mid 50s or so, who have somehow high functioning alcohol, like their entire lives at some point, will hit some sort of rock bottom, so being able to talk about creating a sober safe space, but then also, who in the community is empowered to do, almost like some of the intervention work that's needed, that's been something that many people have shied away from, is to call out someone else on their drinking habits. And because no one did that in my life for two decades, I would drink and get way too drunk and be hungover and oh, the next day, isn't that funny? I can't believe and I would have no memory of it. And that is not funny. And to think that, you know, there's just not many people that are able to have that skill and understand how powerful that can be. You know, that's something that I'm I've really drawn back into. So I've been doing that work for last nine months and then recently have been brought into more of the research around addiction. And my work, I would say, is more on the environmental side. So there's, I think, three pillars of work, there's treatment and work on yourself, there's treatment or work in community, like peer groups, like AA, and then there's this environment, which for me, totally threw me into what we call returns to use several times, and that's the area that I'm focused on. So I'm getting back into that through the U of M, through an amazing opportunity that just came my way yesterday to be part of a study on, you know, addiction, and bridging that gap between social integration for people that come out of a 90 day treatment program and are just dropped back into their life, it's like that's not going to work. So we need to have more ways to integrate back in for family to also come along for that journey. In order to make it stick, the relapse rates are crazy high for first time, 40 to 60% you almost anticipate it, right?
Dina Simon 29:42
Yeah, and just again, why we even wanted you on the podcast is because of the conversation, right? It's like anything. We've got to just keep talking about it. We have to raise awareness. I love what you said is, yeah, nobody was courageous enough in your life to say, Hey, you don't even remember what happened last night. Don't think that's problem. But as you said, it wasn't even just the courage, just the training, like they don't know what to say or how to do it, and,
Unknown Speaker 30:07
yeah, and empathy and also understand that. I mean, that's, there's so much work that can be done in that space. And those are the calls that I'm getting now. My sister, I think, needs help. What do I do? So I am literally being tested very frequently, and I, you know, find the language to say, here's, you know, here's a step getting them, you know, they're the number in that person's phone of someone they can call. Like, it's small things, right? But like to have that planted, that seed with someone, and when the right time is hit, when you are a rock bottom enough you know what action to take. So I think it's it's really important work, and to let people know that it does matter, it can be done. It's a hard conversation, right, which we don't always like. It makes us uncomfortable, but it can be done in such a loving way and supported way, that you are also drawing your own boundaries, and ultimately, it helps an entire family and generations like heal from trauma. That's all it is. It's all, you know, connected to childhood trauma. So a lot of therapy goes hand in hand with addiction and recovery. Absolutely,
Dina Simon 31:14
absolutely.
John Simon Sr. 31:15
When you talk a minute or so ago about, you know, maybe not remembering, you know, the night before, there were many times that I would get up and go to work the next day and say, How did I make it home last night? Did I stop at all those red lights? Did I, you know, did I pay attention to the environment around me? And you really didn't, and and, yes, thank God, and survived and never hurt anybody. But thank god. Oh yeah, because, you know, in the 70s and 80s, that was a big thing, yeah, and no seat belts. And exactly yeah, no airbags, no seat belts. Not about it. That type. That's it struck a nerve with me just thinking about it. Because every once while I think about that,
Dina Simon 31:59
yeah, yeah. Because John was saying, you know, they, he was in business at the time where, you know, it was liquid lunches and, and, yes, right? And that budge, yep. And then John, you said, too, you know, at the end of the day, it wasn't uncommon, you'd walk into somebody's office and there'd be a bottle, and you might have a whiskey, talk about your how you wrapped up your day and go home and, yeah,
Unknown Speaker 32:22
yeah, that culture. And, you know, we do, it's interesting in corporate to see that there's a lot of companies that place a high value on either gifting alcohol or having, like, Best Places to Work awards because, you know, a company has a break room with a keg available all day. I'm like, Oh my gosh. And I've been calling that out for at least a decade, and that that is starting to change. But, yeah, I mean, I and I think John, your point, it speaks to how I felt about the disease of addiction, which was, like, it's just me. I'm just like, you know, if anything bad happens, it's just me and my life. And it's like eye opening to look at how like it affected my children, how it affected my husband at the time, like it's not a like, it just doesn't it's not just one person. And the hurt and the harm that you cause everyone around you is is huge. So healing from that and understanding that it's the impact is really great when you make those
Dina Simon 33:20
type of choices. Well, I'm just so proud of the journey that you put yourself through. And, I mean, think of this like the decade of work that you've put in and everything that you have in front of you, and the TEDx talk, The New York Times, it doesn't matter what your last name is, or will it be, because you're just gonna continue. I mean, I think there's just this big ripple effect, right, like, of what you're doing, and it's just gonna keep growing.
Unknown Speaker 33:45
Yeah, it absolutely feels that way. And it's, it's one of the mantras in a is, just do, do the next right thing that is immediately in front of you, which has given me a lot of peace, in terms of, like, you can feel really overwhelmed as an entrepreneur is, you know, in any in any space, you can feel overwhelmed. So it's just like, just, you know, whatever that next straight thing is, and it could be in the next two seconds, right? So good to live by some of those mantras that you know were really took hold, like, a decade or so ago, right?
Dina Simon 34:17
So knowing you were to be on the podcast, was there anything else that you wanted our listeners to hear? Well,
Unknown Speaker 34:23
I just, I love the idea of legacy. I mean, I never had really considered that. I always thought in my 20s I would have a career path and I maybe just go up some sort of corporate ladder. And have you know, legacy is so cool to think about, and what I see it starting to be reflected back to me in is my children, like, there, you know, Calvin, my son, as he's looking at colleges, is thinking about what, what does that campus look like in terms of its value that it places on alcohol? And, you know, it's rampant in college campuses around the country. So starting to hear them like, use some of the language I've used. Some better choices. I mean, Gen Z got it figured out in many ways. I also have a lot of challenges in mental health, but that, to me, feels like legacy coming a little full circle, like the work is really going to hopefully impact my family and friends and community. Yeah,
Dina Simon 35:17
and think about your children and their friends and just the awareness of what you have gone through and your journey of what you're doing today, the conversation a safe place to have these conversations, because it is scary when you send your kids off to college, and regardless of college campus, like some people, you know, if it's a party school or not a party school, they can still find something to get into trouble with, right? For sure. Yeah,
John Simon Sr. 35:43
well, and it sounds like at 18 years old, he not only listens, but he understands, and hopefully he'll respond,
Unknown Speaker 35:50
yeah, yep. And hopefully they'll go on to make, you know, change in their friend group and those decisions, and I've already seen it happen. It's, it's a really beautiful thing and and to know that this generation understands like alcohol is ethanol. It's like the tobacco right of decades ago, when, you know, they changed the labels and the advertising, and currently alcohol is still being glamorized. So for them to understand that, at least they understand what's being marketed to them, and it absolutely all eat as promised, yeah,
Dina Simon 36:22
yeah. We talked. We've talked a few times on the podcast about, you know, one things, even through the pandemic, the two things that sold were lipstick and alcohol. Because, you know, yeah, yeah. And all of the sports and entertainment people that have their tequila companies or their vodka companies, there's, all of that too. So as you know so much from your marketing background,
John Simon Sr. 36:44
yeah, for sure. And then when, when you take a look at old maybe magazines and articles that came out, and they would have the package Chesterfields, and they would be interviewing a doctor, and most doctors prefer Chesterfield right? That was a big thing in the old, you know, the old Life magazines. And look magazines that, you know they they would have testimonials from from doctors, about the the, you know, how good it was to smoke,
Unknown Speaker 37:13
thank goodness, right? Well, and you know, there's a little bit of that in the alcohol industry, right? Like the French drink red wine, and they're super healthy, and it's good for you. And then you tell that to Americans, and we go, oh, well, five ounce glass, and then we turn it into a full bottle. Oh, well, absolutely
Dina Simon 37:28
right, right, yes, yeah,
Unknown Speaker 37:31
careful in the
Dina Simon 37:32
US, our culture. Oh, Jen, it's been such a joy to have you. I can't believe we've kept you on so long. Oh, we can
Unknown Speaker 37:40
continue. And, no,
Dina Simon 37:42
it's kind of great.
Unknown Speaker 37:43
I love that the two of you are doing this together. Dina spilled me in on a lot of that why and that backstory. I just think that's an amazing way to stay connected and keep learning together. It's very cool,
John Simon Sr. 37:54
and it is interesting because I was a couple of weeks ago, I was with family back in Pittsburgh and and they're all listening to the podcast and everything, and they're learning things about my life and Dina's life and our grandchildren and children, and it's really been an eye opening experience
Unknown Speaker 38:10
that's so cool. I love it. Continue on.
Dina Simon 38:14
Yes, we will continue on. And we'd love as you continue to evolve and all this fun stuff you're doing, we'd love to have you back on another time, just so we can get updated on new things that you're doing. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 38:24
I'd love that. Well, especially
John Simon Sr. 38:25
after the name change,
Unknown Speaker 38:27
yeah, we're sure it'll be a big reveal. Yes, awesome. Well,
Dina Simon 38:32
thank you, Jen for being on and continued success in everything that you're doing.
Unknown Speaker 38:36
Thank you so much.
Dina Simon 38:39
I would like to thank Jen gilhoy for joining us on the podcast. We had so much fun in this conversation. She's got so much going on, so proud of the work that she's doing. She's the owner of Spark track, which is her marketing company that we didn't even spend that much time talking about, co founder of sauna and sobriety and a co founder of zero proof collective and a TEDx speaker, as we talked about, featured in a lot of things recently. I will put links in her bio on the show notes and just thank you, Jen, and we'll be excited to hear you do your reveal of your new last name, and just all the amazing things that you're doing out the world. And know that people will continue to rally around you and keep all of this momentum moving forward. As always, I'd like to thank my father in law, John Simon, for being my co host and until we talk again. You.